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Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

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Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#71
post #8

Everything in the post can by explained by "People think the familiar is easy, and the novel is hard." Judged by the standards of a programmer, yes, the suggested solutions are simpler. Judged by the non-technical coworker's standards, no, they are new and therefore scary and harder. You might say, "If they expended even 5 minutes of effort, they would not feel that way." But that's 5 minutes more than just using the…

The interesting part to me is, these "non-technical" coworkers aren't proposing simpler solutions. When reading "Why couldn't you just do this in something simple like Word?", Word isn't what I'd call a simple program from any angle. It's not preinstalled on most computers and costs money, it won't run everywhere (running Word on a school provided Chromebook is a world of fun), for decades it had version compatibilit…

> The interesting part to me is, these "non-technical" coworkers aren't proposing simpler solutions.

This.

I still keep wondering why that is. My two theories are that it is either marketing budgets or that there are many visual thinkers who benefit a lot from UIs.

If it is the former, the Markdown is actually better than Word and we should teach it in schools. Bit if the latter theory is correct, people are different and trying to teach everyone Markdown would be counter-productive.

Not knowing which theory is correct means I don't know what to advocate for.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#72

I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. They just know how to type Java on an IDE, maybe some SQL (using some graphical front end), some HTML/CSS. They can't operate in a Linux dev environment at all, can't use the command line or exit vi or perform any kind of simple shell based automation or use git without a plugin for their IDE. And they also are reluctant to learn because they are se…

There are three variants:

#1. They are just stupid.

#2. They don't care about work other than bare minimum to not get fired. They have better things in their life to care about.

#3. They are as smart as you are, but they put their efforts elsewhere that you don't directly observe. May be they don't know how to operate Linux environment, but they spent days reading about DSP math and they can apply this knowledge to optimise some signal filter. May be they don't know HTML, but they spend that time to learn Spring internals and can compose really beautiful code out of it or solve very hard problems.

I think that specialisation is not that bad. It's everywhere. Some people in IT are generalists, they know a bit of everything. I consider myself one. I'm trying to build an embedded Linux distro right now, few days ago I was writing parser for PDF to extract some information (real parser, byte after byte), few weeks ago I tinkered with STM32 program, few months ago I wrote Java service, next week I'l continue to work on React web app which is going to run on embedded device. I do everything, my knowledge helps me immensely to quickly dive into new area. But i'm absolutely far from expert and sometimes I'd spend lots of time when I lack a knowledge. For example I spent two weeks trying to start graphics on i.MX8MM board and I failed. I need to debug kernel but I just don't have that kind of skill in Linux internals. But there are people who prefer to specialise and that's fine and they would probably solve that problem in few days.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#73
post #8

Everything in the post can by explained by "People think the familiar is easy, and the novel is hard." Judged by the standards of a programmer, yes, the suggested solutions are simpler. Judged by the non-technical coworker's standards, no, they are new and therefore scary and harder. You might say, "If they expended even 5 minutes of effort, they would not feel that way." But that's 5 minutes more than just using the…

This is the case even among highly technical and otherwise competent programmers. Junior developers especially will spend days reinventing wheels in whatever hot new language or framework when a better solution can be had in 5 minutes of reading a manpage. There seems to be nothing I can do to convince these devs of the errors of their ways.

This is different though. When junior developers reinvent wheels they are learning. The challenge here is to not put the results into production but still make it feel impactful.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#75

I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. They just know how to type Java on an IDE, maybe some SQL (using some graphical front end), some HTML/CSS. They can't operate in a Linux dev environment at all, can't use the command line or exit vi or perform any kind of simple shell based automation or use git without a plugin for their IDE. And they also are reluctant to learn because they are se…

> I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. I've noticed something with boot camp programmers too. Something that may have changed is that newer graduates may have studied programming because "it pays well", and not because they were computer hobbyists before deciding what to study. I've been on meetings with some programmers that didn't know how to use a gui ftp client or how to manually u…

Just like many other types of higher education. Doctors, Lawyers etc. A CS, CE, EE degree is for many the first step on a career path. In many cultures becoming an doctor, lawyer, engineer is something to strive for. It is an upstanding position and is well payed. Too bad being a teacher seems not to be like that anymore in many western countries.

We here at HN are quite probably not the norm. Being hobbyists that have been tinkering with computers since early childhood should not be a requirement to become a programmer. If it were, the industry would not be able to scale as it has. There are simply too few of us in the human population.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#76

I want to point out two additional observations. 1. There are a decent amount of software engineers or programmers whom literally aged at the perfect time to organically learn these tools that later became fundamental. If you even touched a computer from the 60s to the late nineties in a engineering aspect at all, you were bound to have worked in a terminal, worked on computers with a single core, worked on computers…

I am the first to graduate college and to go into software. I learned a lot on my own before studying Computer Science, and still do after.

I can agree that people tend to quickly get condescending ("just google it") instead of giving keywords ("I think you are looking for X, Y, Z, try to read about them and come back when you have specific questions"). IMO the latter is constructive, the former is discouraging. The point here is: don't be condescending, try to give advice/keywords.

This said, many beginners think that their first project can be a complex application even though they don't know how to write code. The constructive comment for them is "start small, learn the language first", but of course many beginners don't take that as an answer. Beginners need to accept that learning software engineering takes time and dedication.

Finally, some devs tend to think that they are so smart that if they don't grasp something in 2 seconds, then that something is bad. I disagree with that. An experienced developer should know how to learn a new tool. If they don't like it, they can try another one, write their own (and see if a community follows them), or just accept that they don't have a choice. That's how it works.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#77

My children are a fine example - they're teenagers now, and they have had more access to tech than most people (thanks to Dad [me!]). Yet they barely know how to do more than Word, and don't understand the concept of a text editor vs rich text editor vs word processor. The problem isn't them, it's us. Why DO we expect "normies", as it were, to understand Markdown, text editors and the holy war of Plain Text? Why are…

My motivation for using markdown is simple: I can keep track of changes with git.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#78
Literally everything I write is in Markdown because it’s so simple to me. I use it for blogposts, presentations, documentation, todos, internet comments.

But this article doesn’t strike a chord with me. The author fails to understand that it seems easy to us because we’re familiar with it. Of course we know how to transform it into PDF or HTML. But this knowledge isn’t basic, and it’s understandable that people want to stick to what they know.

Here’s an example. Say you had 10000 rows of CSV to slice and dice and extract insights and visualisations out of. All of us would go to the tools we’re familiar with - pandas, R, duckDB etc. But I think the median Excel user probably completes this task quicker and better than the median pandas user. And then if the pandas person is told “oh, just pick up Excel, it’s easy to learn and so useful” they won’t listen. And for good reason! Excel is powerful, but it’s not easy to learn. It only seems that way to people who already know how it works.

Don’t confuse the familiar with easy. Just because it’s easy for you doesn’t mean it’s objectively easy.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#79
Slight tangent from the original post:

I wish "normal" people were more tech-literate. I don't think they realize just how much of their autonomy they've given up by choosing to use Microsoft Products/Reddit/Twitter/Spotify/Facebook/TikTok/Apple Products/ etc.

We're at a point where now the average person depends on several layers of technology that they can't even conceive of, and often the companies building that technology don't share their political interests. But then the average person expresses frustration at having to use open-source alternatives (which is completely understandable when the open-source alternative is definitively worse!).

Basically, for me not understanding how technology works when it's so central to our everyday lives just seems baffling. I suppose someone could say the exact same thing to me about not understanding how my car works, or how to grow my own food. Maybe technology seems easier to learn than agriculture? But then of course it's easier for me, I'm a professional programmer. So I try to have a lot of empathy for everyone who doesn't understand technology, especially my mom when she doesn't know how to convert a PDF.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#80

I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. They just know how to type Java on an IDE, maybe some SQL (using some graphical front end), some HTML/CSS. They can't operate in a Linux dev environment at all, can't use the command line or exit vi or perform any kind of simple shell based automation or use git without a plugin for their IDE. And they also are reluctant to learn because they are se…

As a person with an extensive background in ML, I feel similarly about CS grads attaching themselves to "AI" enterprises until they convince themselves they're an "expert" without putting in the due diligence to understand the unifying math under the hood. They end up doing stupid things with their models, completely ruining their business proposition through their lack of understanding in how the ML theory makes the implementation make sense. And then they don't even know how to appropriately judge the quality of the outputs from the reported metrics.

It's normies all the way down.

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