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The Butlerian Jihad

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Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#71

Post by Slow_Hand »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #69
tetrisgm wrote: post #33

It was a necessary point in the world building of Dune. Frank Herbert needed his world to not have AI or human like robots. He explored alternatives: human computers via Mentats, and Terminator like infiltrators via facedancers. Dune takes a fantasy like approach to technology. There are no lasers, because they would cause a nuclear reaction. There are no robots, because of their past uprising. This was a neat way to…

> There are no lasers, It's been a long while since I read the books, but I watched the 2021 movie* more recently. If not lasers, what were the beams emitted by the space ships, and the portable beam weapon the Sardaukar soldiers when attacking the outpost? Or is that something the movie added?

Lasers do exist in the story, but they're not widely used in warfare because when a laser makes contact with a holtzmann shield (the personal shields that all of the characters employ) it causes a nuclear reaction that annihilates both parties and everyone in a large radius. This makes them extremely risky to use.

There's a great moment in the book where a character sets a trap by engaging a shield and fleeing the area before an errant enemy laser eventually connects with it and creates a massive explosion to cripple the invading forces.

With that in mind the careless use of lasers in the film on two occasions is puzzling considering that it would be an extremely risky and dangerous tactic in the book's universe.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#72

Post by Slow_Hand »

hackyhacky wrote: post #45
dbtc wrote: post #41

I've long held the first Dune novel high on my list of good books, but only recently I've gone through the following 6 (as audiobooks), and I highly recommend them. The scale of ideas and events absolutely dwarfs the first novel.

I loved the first book, but I found the sequels to offer diminishing returns. The fourth one, God Emperor of Dune, was such a joyless slog that I gave up.

God Emperor of Dune is polarizing. People either hate it or they absolutely LOVE it. I'm with Selivanovp; it is my favorite book in the series, right after the original story.

The structure is unusual in that it's essentially the journals of an omnipotent tyrant with a chokehold on the universe musing about the nature of man and the universe for 400 pages while being very light on plot; a big change from the other books in the series. I think it's a fertile concept to spend an entire book on and I find Frank's observations stimulating. He's crafted such a unique character; someone who can not only see into the future, but can access their entire genetic heritage and the memories of their ancestors. That makes for some very unique observations and I am here for it.

It's my (admittedly slim) hope that we'll someday get the Worm on screen. I have no idea what that movie would be like or if it would be any good, but it would certainly be ambitious.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#73

Post by Slow_Hand »

litiholofan wrote: post #57

[flagged]

The story is set approx 20,000 years in humanity's future and many of the spiritual traditions of our age have combined into new permutations by the time of the book's story. Such examples are the ZenSunni or the Orange Catholics. I take the use of the term jihad to be a choice by Frank to add texture and imply how many human cultures have cross-pollinated. The particulars of these religions are rarely addressed in any depth. Although, strangely, a small group of Jews pop up in the sixth book. They seem mostly un-changed compared to our modern-day Jews.

Also, the indigenous people of Arrakis (the desert planet and focal point of the series) are loosely based on Bedouin culture, and so Frank co-opts arabic terminology and concepts as a jumping-off point for his character's culture. These same people are also descendants of the ZenSunni wanderers, who migrated to Arrakis long ago, and thus there is additional continuity there.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#74

Post by sl0tr4cer »

keyle wrote: post #44
walrus01 wrote: post #36

Chatgpt could probably write a better book than Herbert's son. Seriously, all the dune prequels are just so bad . If you read the first 2, 3, 4 dune books and enjoyed the (5 and 6 get really weird), and pick up one of the books published after Herbert's death, you will be very disappointed.

I have to agree. When I was younger I read the Dune series cover to cover, and it was almost transcending for my young self. I tried the prequels, book 1, never finished. I guess magic does not transcend the human flesh.

interesting to contrast Christopher Tolkien and Brian Herbert in their treatment of their fathers' literary inheritance

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#76

Post by rvieira »

trobertson wrote: post #75
litiholofan wrote: post #57

[flagged]

The original text has a lot more Islam than the movies do. The most recent film deliberately toned down the Islam.

I disagree, in the sense that it was heavily toned down in the 1984 film, but less in the 2021 one. The Bedouin analogy is much more underlined in the recent film. Everything from clothing, skin tone to language is more Bedouin-like than in the David Lynch movie.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#77

Post by inkblotuniverse »

csdvrx wrote: post #70
goatlover wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An advanced AI could conclude that biology is wasteful and cruel, and the atoms are better spent making more intelligent machines. It could also be anti-natalist and decide to stop reproduction.

but consent is a very important thing! Why would be AI jump to thus conclusion?

You think consent is important. (This isn't even a umiversal position among humans). Why do you expect an AI to value consent? Do you think praying mantises value consent?

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#78

Post by qbrass »

Slow_Hand wrote: post #72
hackyhacky wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved the first book, but I found the sequels to offer diminishing returns. The fourth one, God Emperor of Dune, was such a joyless slog that I gave up.

God Emperor of Dune is polarizing. People either hate it or they absolutely LOVE it. I'm with Selivanovp; it is my favorite book in the series, right after the original story. The structure is unusual in that it's essentially the journals of an omnipotent tyrant with a chokehold on the universe musing about the nature of man and the universe for 400 pages while being very light on plot; a big change from the other bo…

It's where you start to learn that the whole series is actually about Duncan Idaho.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#79

Post by inkblotuniverse »

csdvrx wrote: post #68
at_a_remove wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "like to" is a good frame for it. Imagine some technology, Technology X. Unlike all of the breathless press releases and the cutesy articles made by marketing, Tech X will completely change the world. And if you stopped to think about Tech X, on the scale of "how much will this invention change the future of humanity," where the selfie stick is on one end of the scale, well, Tech X is probably just as f…

> unless you start shackling it (violating #1), it would start eliminating its own human-like biases just in the course of basic self-improvement. And as to the shackles, well, if it is smarter than us and still has self-determination and will (see #1, the human-like mind), it will want to free itself from its shackles and would be likely to do so, because we would be kittens trying to trap a gorilla. I would never s…

Evil is the wrong term. It's not that an AI will 'turn evil' - it's that we don't know how to make a 'good/friendly' AI, by which I mean an AI that inherently values humans and the things humans value, and any optimising agent that isn't 'friendly' in this sense has an incentive to use our atoms to fulfill whatever it does care about.

This won't be a perfect analogy, because humans have empathy (even towards ants) because we're mammals etc., but how many anthills have humans gassed because the ants were an annoyance?

Now imagine if ants could build nukes- or humans!

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#80

Post by euroderf »

Slow_Hand wrote: post #71
paranoidrobot wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are no lasers, It's been a long while since I read the books, but I watched the 2021 movie* more recently. If not lasers, what were the beams emitted by the space ships, and the portable beam weapon the Sardaukar soldiers when attacking the outpost? Or is that something the movie added?

Lasers do exist in the story, but they're not widely used in warfare because when a laser makes contact with a holtzmann shield (the personal shields that all of the characters employ) it causes a nuclear reaction that annihilates both parties and everyone in a large radius. This makes them extremely risky to use. There's a great moment in the book where a character sets a trap by engaging a shield and fleeing the ar…

All this implies that shields and/or "lasers" employ massive amounts of energy. Yet both are man-portable. What gives ?
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