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Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#71

Post by tokey »

Isn't this patently obvious that dropping the SAT is entirely about creating pretext for continued discrimination against Asian applicants?

In 1996, California repealed affirmative action via Prop 209. At the UC Berkeley and UCLA, considered the 'best' of the UC system, Asians represented 25-30% of the student base. Studies and fear-mongering at the time showed that a repeal of affirmative action would imply that Asians would become 90% of the enrollment based on the admissions factors used.

The UC system dismantled its admissions framework, and yet despite moving to a 'softer' framework, Asian enrollment at UC Berkeley rose to 65-70%, which is the case today.

Now the ithe same thing happening, but on a national scale, 27 years later. It's about time! The reality is on any quantifiable, OBJECTIVE framework, Asians and to a lesser extent, whites, have been shown to be discriminated against. The only way to sustain this, especially in light of the pending ruling from SCOTUS likely banning affirmative action policies at Harvard et al... is to dismantle any external, objective framework for measuring applicants.

Chief Justice Roberts said it plainly: "the only way to end discrimination is to end discrimination."

My question is, if you eliminated race - 'banned the box' on applications, what would the outcomes be? Answer is self-evident and that's the true reason the SAT and test scores in general are going away. "a rose by any other name".

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#72

Post by civilized »

kenjackson wrote: post #67
civilized wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standardized tests are designed to be as non-gameable as possible. They're definitely less gameable than the other admissions criteria still used in elite colleges: admissions essays, playing obscure sports, fancy extracurricular experiences, etc. Most studies find SAT prep confers very limited benefits to the average person. Having an essay essentially written for you by an expensive consultant with contacts in admi…

The SAT is way more gameable than the College Board would have you believe. Most coaching is not very effective, but there is a group that is very effective. It’s almost by design that they aren’t very popular. That said it is less gameable than most of the rest of the process. Family wealth and income are probably less gameable, but many schools are need blind.

Are you saying there is some particular training program that increases scores much more than the 30-90 points claimed by various studies?

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#73

Post by nicoburns »

rendall wrote: post #34
nicoburns wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where you go to school still greatly affects how well you are likely to do on standardised tests. Better schools can easily bump students up 2 or 3 grades compared to poorer schools. To some extent this will also improve students’ ability to complete degree courses, but there’s also a great extent to which this is just teaching students how to pass standardised tests well. It’s true that truly excellent students will…

> Where you go to school still greatly affects how well you are likely to do on standardised tests. Better schools can easily bump students up 2 or 3 grades compared to poorer schools... Neither SAT nor ACT are measured in "grades", so it's not clear what you mean to say here.

Grades in the UK are based 10 percentage point increments if that helps.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#74

Post by aperson_hello »

sillypuddy wrote: post #52
1letterunixname wrote: post #9

Maybe I'm old or insufficiently woke, but I don't see legacy or identity as substitutes for demonstrated learning. I see the decay of rigor and achievement as signals of decline of excellence and the crumbling of knowledge. The mythology of "everyone needs degrees" created a wealth transfer scam and a lowering of standards to sell more student loan debt for sheepskins. Maybe we need to throw away arbitrary employment…

States and companies are starting to drop college arbitrary college degree requirements: https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/pennsylvania-governor-r... https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/25/companies-eliminate-college-...

But all it will take for those arbitrary requirements to get reinstated is another recession...

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#75

Post by jeffrallen »

I live in a society with free education for all, up to and including university. To make that possible, there are a limited number of seats, and the number is based on the needs of society, and on our government's budget. The seats are allocated based on testing, but there are multiple ways to "test into" a seat, i.e. "you missed it this time, but go do another two years of pre-university and you might get in later".

This is the best we can hope for: a transparent system, with clearly defined multiple pathways, and a limited number of completely free seats at the education table.

Also: one thing which other systems miss is different maturity. If someone is bright but at 15 does not see the point of studying and prefers to smoke with the stoners, fine. At 18, get a job in retail, and perhaps at 20 the light will go on and they will realize that there's a way put of retail hell and they are smart enough to test into university with night prep classes.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#76

Post by Ekaros »

lapcat wrote: post #35
sandworm101 wrote: post #5

Standardized tests remain the only criteria totally in the control of the student. You can study for them and objectively do better, become a better applicant. Everthing else is either circumstantial or based in the opinion of others, mostly highschool teachers. If i had to rely on my highschool teachers' opinion of me i would not have ever gone to university let alone have won scholarships. Standardized testing allo…

> Standardized tests remain the only criteria totally in the control of the student. You can study for them and objectively do better, become a better applicant. This view ironically makes schools and education irrelevant. Why even send students to school, if test scores are "totally" in the control of the student?

The schools and education offer students a tools to achieve good scores in SAT. Some do better, some do worse. On average I doubt most students are capable of self-learning or sufficiently directed towards it at that age.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#77

Post by sokoloff »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #59
sokoloff wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no amount of test prep that will get a “stupid child” to a 1500+ on the SAT.

To get into Jesuit High in New Orleans, you need to have parents with money, no criminal record, and a pulse. The average student ACT score there is 31. That's the 95th percentile nationally. Those kids get great educations and have involved parents, but they aren't averaging 31s due to merit unless you're counting their parents' wallets too.

That looks to be about the equivalent of 1400 in the SAT. An ACT of 31 is more aligned to Tulane’s admitted class than Harvard’s. (Tulane is a top 50 university, so still “a good school” relative to the entire population of 18 year old high school grads.)

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#78

Post by kenjackson »

mrangle wrote: post #66
PaulHoule wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the other way around. It helps to have some familiarity with the test, so test prep has some value, but some rich kids can’t test their way out of a paper bag. The one thing they could do is hire a ringer to take the test for them, otherwise it is a valuable form of downward mobility which presents a “barrier” to them hoarding opportunity from someone more able.

There's virtually no such thing as ringers taking tests. The majority of rich kids, whose parents are serious about college, are tracked through prep schools beginning with kindergarten. Its more rare than not that such a kid underperforms enough to be excluded from elite University admission. Especially once one includes the many elite liberal arts colleges that are generally off of the radar of poors. I do agree ab…

There are more ringers taking tests than we probably know. I used to teach SAT prep and I was propositioned multiple times about this (usual subtle). Of course I never did it, but I’m sure they could find someone.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#79

Post by lapcat »

ngc248 wrote: post #68
lapcat wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For those pursuing expertise though, schools can provide a lot of value through offering access to others with talent and to some degree infrastructure. I think you misunderstood what I meant. When I was referring to schools, I meant high school and earlier. In other words, the schools that should presumably give you an education relevant to the standardized tests.

OP is not saying Only standardized tests are relevant, what he is saying is after your education, SATs are the level playing field which you can prepare for, the preparation is within the student's control. Otherwise its all fuzzy and vague extra-curriculars etc which will decide who gets in. The Elites will still get in and the people at the other extreme will also get in, but its the ones in the middle who will suf…

> after your education

I don't think one can just hand-wave away the primary school in this way and at the same time talk about a level playing field and dismiss extra-curriculars. They're all related.

Moreover, for better or worse, college is not a purely academic exercise. Colleges are looking for applicants who will participate in the social life of the campus, not just robotically go to class. They want students to participate in college extra-curriculars too.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#80

Post by mrangle »

medler wrote: post #23
sandworm101 wrote: post #5

Standardized tests remain the only criteria totally in the control of the student. You can study for them and objectively do better, become a better applicant. Everthing else is either circumstantial or based in the opinion of others, mostly highschool teachers. If i had to rely on my highschool teachers' opinion of me i would not have ever gone to university let alone have won scholarships. Standardized testing allo…

> You can study for them and objectively do better, become a better applicant The thing is, attempts to measure the effect of test prep show they have little effect. According to these studies, SAT test prep courses might add ~30 points to your score: https://slate.com/technology/2019/04/sat-prep-courses-do-the...

That's right. Now add the fact that people can have a thirty point swing in score between attempts and without a difference in studying.

Total education and intelligence are largely what determines one's score. Beyond basic studying that literally everyone can and should do, no one is going to cram-course their way to a 250 point difference. Which when I took the test, was often the difference between say a successful Ivy applicant and a successful Duke applicant. Lesser private and public school applicants dropping from there.

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