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When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

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Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#71

Post by patricklynch »

ceol wrote: post #47
eternalban wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal experience in the field does not support your apparently strongly held assertion. Thus "IMO". > "you shouldn't try to grab focus with" Please do not question my motivation. I had a point to make.

It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate. Women face a lot of discrimination in the tech industry. You can say, "I don't see it," but saying it's your opinion that it doesn't exist is characterizing it as something that is opinionated. I'm sorry if it wasn't your intent to steal focus. What you did, whether intentional or not, is a common derailing tactic.

"It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate."

If he hasn't seen any compelling evidence of [Issue X], then for him it remains unresolved. Rather than being offended that his mind isn't made up the right way, you might consider sharing whatever evidence makes you convinced that [Issue X] is a problem.

---

assertion - a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason (from dictionary.com)

That seems like a perfectly fitting word to me.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#72

Post by ceol »

lrhot9 wrote: post #54
ceol wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are a couple of links to lists of contributions by women to various fields. Medicine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_medicine#Pioneering_wo... Computing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Computing#Timeline_of_... Engineering: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_engineering#Notable_wo... Geology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_geology#Female_geologi... Hopefully it's apparent that having a fr…

Surely you can see that those lists doesn't answer the question. "Nineteenth century British geologist" isn't an innovation, and a woman contributing to a field does not mean that "diversity fuels innovation".

I'm sorry. I don't have a list of innovations that happened because an underprivileged person joined a profession and used their world view. I could say the rise in Facebook/casual gaming proves there was a market going untapped, but I'm not sure if that was done by a woman/casual gamer, so I'm hesitant to use it.

I was hoping it would be apparent that bringing in a different perspective would help a brand or profession appeal to a wider audience, but if you would like hard evidence this happens, I'm afraid I don't have the patience to research it. If that means my point is null-and-void, so be it.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#74

Post by ceol »

lrhot9 wrote: post #66
ceol wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate. Women face a lot of discrimination in the tech industry. You can say, "I don't see it," but saying it's your opinion that it doesn't exist is characterizing it as something that is opinionated. I'm sorry if it wasn't your intent to steal focus. What you did, whether intentional or not, is a common derailing tactic.

The only way for it to not be up for debate would be if there existed a perfect discrimination-measuring machine. Look, if lack of diversity can only be explained by discrimination, you need to show that the field where women are most underrepresented - higher mathematics - is also the most rife with discrimination. I've never seen a female mathematician suggest it is. How do you explain this?

By that logic, nothing can ever exist without some way to measure it, yet we know of things like emotions and attractiveness. Would you then say that "hatred" or "love" cannot exist because there isn't a hatred/love-measuring machine?

Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. I don't have any experience with higher mathematics, but let's take programming. Would the existence of a women-centric programming club be proof enough of the discrimination women face? What about the blog posts of women in CS courses expressing their disdain for their male classmates/teachers? Or the attempts to attract women into the field?

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#75

Post by SolarNet »

jacoblyles wrote: post #68
lizzard wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because misogyny is a tool that can be wielded in many directions. And it gets wielded to defend privilege and power. Once a field is defined as powerful, part of an elite, girls often are driven out of it as that field or interest is redefined to be a male thing. Boys, and girls too, ostracize and mock girls who are "into computers" because they are going outside a gender norm. If you think this doesn't still h…

Your world model doesn't fit the fact that women have been gaining in every elite profession I can think of over the last 50 years. Take the example of the gender breakdown of law and medicine students: http://chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/equality-for-women-bet... Also, I would like to journey to this mythical world of yours where programming is considered an "elite" job.

On average I will make more money than any other 4 year degree at my school (According to our schools alum association).

I am part of a profession that has created a significant amount of recent world wide change, like Facebook, Twitter, Google, and almost every innovation on or related to the web since it's beginning.

There is a different between programmers (Like the ones Microsoft hires), and people who can program (Like the ones a small website will hire). A programmer knows more than just programming, he knows data structures, algorithms, programming language theory, how operating systems work, and a lot more, because it makes him better at his job.

If that isn't elite I don't know what is. (Lawyers and doctors can change the world, or they can practice their craft on everyday matters, and there is a wide variance between full on doctor and nurse/physician/ect., it is the same with programmers [We just haven't labeled the different tiers yet])

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#76

Post by ceol »

mekoka wrote: post #55
ceol wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the three games you listed. Pac- Man , Super Mario , Goonies (a game about young men ).

Are you making the point that characters in the games were male, hence they were guy games? There have been a number of famous female protagonists in games, it hasn't necessarily made them popular with girls, or unpopular with guys (Samus Aran, Lara Croft, etc). My Dad actually bought me Ms Pac-man with my atari 2600, I never had the original Pac-man (there was no point, it was the exact same game). I only listed Pac…

I have a female friend who enjoys the Mario series. That doesn't mean it's not gender-specific; it means there exist some women to which that game appeals. Super Mario is extremely gender-specific: the main characters are male attempting to save princesses. Pac-Man was less specific aside from his name, but even then, Ms Pac-Man was a hyper-gendered incarnation of her male counterpart. Take a look:

Pac-Man logo: http://images.wikia.com/logopedia/images/6/60/Pacman-logo.jp...

Ms Pac-Man logo: http://sherisays.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/ms.jpg

This is exactly what all those blog posts are talking about with regard to Arkham City and the DC New 52. The women are male fantasies of women. Ms Pac-Man doesn't appeal to women; it appeals to men.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#77

Post by ceol »

patricklynch wrote: post #71
ceol wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate. Women face a lot of discrimination in the tech industry. You can say, "I don't see it," but saying it's your opinion that it doesn't exist is characterizing it as something that is opinionated. I'm sorry if it wasn't your intent to steal focus. What you did, whether intentional or not, is a common derailing tactic.

"It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate." If he hasn't seen any compelling evidence of [Issue X], then for him it remains unresolved. Rather than being offended that his mind isn't made up the right way, you might consider sharing whatever evidence makes you convinced that [Issue X] is a problem. --- assertion - a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason (from dicti…

If you assumed I was offended by his post, you're far off. I'm only disappointed. The evidence is this blog post and the countless ones like it saying how tough it is for a woman to get into programming without being bombarded with negative attention just because of their gender.

As I said in the other reply, there is no way to perfectly measure discrimination. If you don't trust the various testimonies by women in the tech industry and would rather plug your ears, please do not further this discussion.

Links to check out:

http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2010/07/26/woman-in-tech...

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/edlife/12STABINE.html

http://www.bluepoof.com/Colloquium/attitudes.html

http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#78

Post by squiggly101 »

josscrowcroft wrote: post #7

So I'm reading this, then I skim down and see how long it is. I read some more. Is it me or did this make no real point at all? Ladies learning code. Good idea, because more people coding is good, ladies or otherwise. I fail to see why the author is so amazingly hung up on whether or not it's feminist.

Female journalist? Enough said.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#79

Post by lrhot9 »

ceol wrote: post #74
lrhot9 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way for it to not be up for debate would be if there existed a perfect discrimination-measuring machine. Look, if lack of diversity can only be explained by discrimination, you need to show that the field where women are most underrepresented - higher mathematics - is also the most rife with discrimination. I've never seen a female mathematician suggest it is. How do you explain this?

By that logic, nothing can ever exist without some way to measure it, yet we know of things like emotions and attractiveness. Would you then say that "hatred" or "love" cannot exist because there isn't a hatred/love-measuring machine? Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. I don't have any experience with higher mathematics, but let's take programming. Would the existence of a women-centric…

No, by that logic, it's just up for debate.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#80

Post by angrycoder »

eternalban wrote: post #22

"If we allow ..." Who is this we and how is this authoritarian power exercised? Interestingly enough, Age discrimination in the industry continues to be ignored while the (IMO) highly debatable notion of sex discrimination in the field is the subject of countless articles and debates. At least the Japanese are honest about the fact that they don't want programmers older than 30 years of age. The barrier to entry in t…

I personally have worked with half a dozen programmers over 40 and 2 over 50. All of the people I currently work with are over 30, myself included.

I have worked with one female developer in my entire career.

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