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China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

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Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#71

Post by yogthos »

grayhatter wrote: post #61
yogthos wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trying to claim that people in China can't understand whether their government works for them or not. This is a profoundly absurd claim. The fact that you don't understand that is absolutely shocking. Here's a Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey showing that Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve of their government https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... H…

> You're trying to claim that people in China can't understand whether their government works for them or not. I'm not, but seeing as you just want to scream at someone on the internet, while also attempting to straw man any argument I make. Which seem to me so that you can argue that opinions from a heavily censored country are more important than independent evaluations from experts. I'll simply respond with no. Fo…

For anyone else following along, I'll just note that they don't make any substantive counterpoint when provided with the evidence, and just made vague claims that evidently my sources "don't support his assertions". How that is the case is not explained. Seems pretty clear which person is being disingenuous here.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#72

Post by mopsi »

2devnull wrote: post #69
clouddrover wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine didn't seek out war. War was brought to Ukraine. Ukrainians are defending their nation from a belligerent invader. Ukrainians are fighting and dying for the mere right to be Ukrainian. That's as existential as it gets. You have understood nothing.

Ukrainians are dying in a war that any educated person knows they are likely to lose. The more money we send them, the more Ukrainians will die. The best solution is a peaceful solution. If you are so righteous in your concern for the plight of Ukrainians, go there and help them! Otherwise you are like the guy who coerces his buddy into a fistfight while hiding safely in the shadows, like a miserable coward.

> Ukrainians are dying in a war that any educated person knows they are likely to lose.

Today is the 25th February 2023, not 2022.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#73

Post by yogthos »

mopsi wrote: post #68
yogthos wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, nobody is surprised by the fact that both parties in US represent the exact same interests https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

I disagree with that, and the linked article says no such thing.

Once you actually read it then you'll find out that it does:

> What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#74

Post by mopsi »

yogthos wrote: post #73
mopsi wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with that, and the linked article says no such thing.

Once you actually read it then you'll find out that it does: > What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually det…

Nowhere does it say that "both parties in US represent the exact same interests".

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#75

Post by clouddrover »

2devnull wrote: post #69
clouddrover wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine didn't seek out war. War was brought to Ukraine. Ukrainians are defending their nation from a belligerent invader. Ukrainians are fighting and dying for the mere right to be Ukrainian. That's as existential as it gets. You have understood nothing.

Ukrainians are dying in a war that any educated person knows they are likely to lose. The more money we send them, the more Ukrainians will die. The best solution is a peaceful solution. If you are so righteous in your concern for the plight of Ukrainians, go there and help them! Otherwise you are like the guy who coerces his buddy into a fistfight while hiding safely in the shadows, like a miserable coward.

Ukrainians won't do the capitulation, submission, or subjugation you want from them. They do not share your nihilism.

You need to recalibrate your sloppy thinking.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#76

Post by lispm »

roundandround wrote: post #25
lispm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic what you describe is unrealistic. Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option.

> Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option. And who suggested that? The question is whether Russia will violate 80 years of superpower precedent by acting with integrity and admitting defeat and willingness to face externally determined consequences or if something else will happen.

Other than having nukes, Russia is no superpower. Nukes are useless in this war.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#77

Post by clouddrover »

roundandround wrote: post #25
lispm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic what you describe is unrealistic. Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option.

> Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option. And who suggested that? The question is whether Russia will violate 80 years of superpower precedent by acting with integrity and admitting defeat and willingness to face externally determined consequences or if something else will happen.

> The question is whether Russia will violate 80 years of superpower precedent

No need to ask that question. Putin has made Russia weaker, poorer, and a pariah with fewer friends:

https://fortune.com/2023/02/20/russia-economy-self-immolated...

Russia has become a lesser state run by a sad little man. If Russia wants to rebuild itself then its best option is to remove Putin and withdraw entirely from Ukraine.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#78

Post by yogthos »

mopsi wrote: post #74
yogthos wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you actually read it then you'll find out that it does: > What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually det…

Nowhere does it say that "both parties in US represent the exact same interests".

The study literally concludes that regardless of what party is in power, it's the interests of the oligarchs that take precedence. Whenever there is a difference of the opinion between the masses and the oligarchs then the oligarchs typically win. That's whose interests the parties represent.

And, if you think that's what a democracy is then what else is there to tell you.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#79

Post by dbreggs22 »

grayhatter wrote: post #61
yogthos wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trying to claim that people in China can't understand whether their government works for them or not. This is a profoundly absurd claim. The fact that you don't understand that is absolutely shocking. Here's a Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey showing that Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve of their government https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... H…

> You're trying to claim that people in China can't understand whether their government works for them or not. I'm not, but seeing as you just want to scream at someone on the internet, while also attempting to straw man any argument I make. Which seem to me so that you can argue that opinions from a heavily censored country are more important than independent evaluations from experts. I'll simply respond with no. Fo…

Nice, thanks. Saved me time. Lol

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#80

Post by yogthos »

jszymborski wrote: post #66
yogthos wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Some white dude from America who couldn't find China on a map surely knows better. Peak chauvinism here my friend.

If you think the ad hominum is going to bully me into accepting something akin to saying the sky is green and polka dotted then I suggest you change tact.

Please learn what ad hominem means if you're going to use it. Nowhere am I suggesting that your argument is wrong because of your character flaws. I've explained why it's wrong on its own merits.
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