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B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

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Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#71

Post by achow »

Though mentions enterprise space (B2B), should mention that in hardware and software consumer product companies the product manager roles does not show much value.

Investing in Design+Engg gives maximum return. These two disciplines have other ones around them like project management, overall product owner (PO, General Manager), etc.

It is really weird when one sees PMs being mentioned as the one who talks to customers or users.

Usually designers were doing that right from beginning, going back to half a century or more..

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#72

Post by christkv »

I have a theory about when innovation slows down to a crawl. Its the inflection point of where there are too many stakeholders to take quick decisions. I don't know what that inflection point is (3-4 ?) but its what I have observed again and again in big organisations.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#73

Post by robertlagrant »

llamaLord wrote: post #51
robertlagrant wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As soon as an article states you can use “product manager” and “project manager” interchangeably This is quite common. Lots of ex-project managers are now called product managers or scrum masters. But they're actually project managers.

Yeah but the fact that OP buys into the trope that they're the same thing kinda speaks to the point that they have no idea what a PM actually does.

If you go by volume, you may well find that the theoretical definition you're referring to is outnumbered by the practical reality. I definitely wouldn't assume that reality matches theory.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#74

Post by thereddaikon »

llamaLord wrote: post #58
polote wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I agree that this is poorly written (I wrote it). The point of the article is not that companies shouldnt have PM, but that you shouldnt make them owner of the innovation in a B2B context. Of course if you start with the assumption of "Good PMs" it will work, but you will rarely find these "good PMs"

In this whole article the word "problem" is only written once, and it's in the line "the problem with product managers is". Given you don't understand that the core pillar of the product manager role is to be the owner of the problem space, I'm not sure how qualified you are to comment on how valuable our role is or isn't. Discovery isn't about decided what does or doesn't get built, it's about discovering what the r…

I've worked with good and bad PMs and this jives with my experience.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#75

Post by [deleted] »

tchock23 wrote: post #11
dchuk wrote: post #10

As soon as an article states you can use “product manager” and “project manager” interchangeably, you can immediately assume the author has no idea what they’re talking about. Convenient this article did that early on, saves everyone a lot of time.

This, plus if you see them mentioning the Henry Ford ‘quote’ about horses you can reliably close the browser tab because they’re about to build a straw man argument against doing basic customer/user research.

[deleted]

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#77

Post by Closi »

evnix wrote: post #60

Most good software out there were started by engineers and not by product managers and engineer only products are generally great and liked by people. Linux and the ecosystem is one example. I am not sure what really happens after Product Managers come in that the product takes a dive. I have seen this repeat almost everywhere. You start with a small team of engineers and have a product that people love, now you need…

> Lawyers are lead by Senior lawyers

You could argue that Lawyers are lead by their clients in the same way that Engineers are led by their end users / PMs.

The difference is that in the Doctor & Lawyer examples your end-user is very obvious because it is the person in-front of you. With Engineering you are not usually in constant contact with your end users, hence the PM role.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#78

Post by klysm »

user_named wrote: post #48
beebmam wrote: post #32

Devs working directly with customers will always be better than relying on PMs to do it. But it's hard to find devs with the soft skills needed, and are willing to do so.

Those people are generally referred to as product managers

I disagree, is writing code usually part of the product manager role?

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#79

Post by singleshot_ »

polote wrote: post #9
nandorsky wrote: post #7

This is a poorly written article that is all over the place. It’s evident the author had a horrible experience with a PM. Their description of a PM is a description of a PM who’s doing their job poorly. Qualitative research at any company is critical and poor qual research (interviewing the wrong people, asking the wrong types of questions, etc) will yield poor insights as is the case here. Any PM working at a B2B st…

Well I agree that this is poorly written (I wrote it). The point of the article is not that companies shouldnt have PM, but that you shouldnt make them owner of the innovation in a B2B context. Of course if you start with the assumption of "Good PMs" it will work, but you will rarely find these "good PMs"

Imagine feeling qualified to write this article without knowing the difference between a project manager and a product manager. Imposter syndrome indeed. Thinking you are the correct person to evaluate a “PM” without knowing what half the letters mean is pretty amazing, leaving us to wonder what would happen if this person ever were to encounter a program manager.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#80

Post by yeshap »

singleshot_ wrote: post #79
polote wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I agree that this is poorly written (I wrote it). The point of the article is not that companies shouldnt have PM, but that you shouldnt make them owner of the innovation in a B2B context. Of course if you start with the assumption of "Good PMs" it will work, but you will rarely find these "good PMs"

Imagine feeling qualified to write this article without knowing the difference between a project manager and a product manager. Imposter syndrome indeed. Thinking you are the correct person to evaluate a “PM” without knowing what half the letters mean is pretty amazing, leaving us to wonder what would happen if this person ever were to encounter a program manager.

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