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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

economist.com

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Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#71

Post by kqr »

mschuster91 wrote: post #35
xxpor wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's partially true, but it's really a combo of both. Things like dual staircase requirements, elevator size requirements, and sprinkler requirements make it extremely expensive to build any sort of housing. A recent affordable building in SF cost over $1 million per unit. That's completely unsustainable.

> Things like dual staircase requirements, elevator size requirements, and sprinkler requirements make it extremely expensive to build any sort of housing. And you want and need precisely that in a house with fluctuating occupants of which a high percentage will have some sort of mental health issue. Cutting corners on boarding houses will lead to fire catastrophes.

> Cutting corners on boarding houses will lead to fire catastrophes.

Nobody denies this. The question is whether said fire catastrophes really claim more lives than homelessness and wintering on the street. (Obviously fire catastrophes are a bigger PR problem and get more media attention, but is that really the appropriate metric for human suffering?)

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#72

Post by ethanbond »

phkahler wrote: post #54
notch898a wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

There are a lot of things driving up housing costs. Some of those are also driving wage disparity.

What are the “a lot of things?” Sure, construction standards are a bit higher but the technology is also much better and faster to build with.

Speculation and landowner greed are the primary drivers of rising housing costs (with restrictive zoning being an consequence of the first two).

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#73

Post by endemic »

notch898a wrote: post #52
ColonelBlimp wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested to know more about the direct correlation between increased cost of housing due to enforcing building codes and homelesness. Can you share links to studies or articles about that? Thanks.

Here's an example https://www.ktnv.com/13-investigates/officials-in-nevada-dem... You're welcome!

> The parcel is zoned for a single-family home.

That seems to be about zoning, not building codes.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#74

Post by moralestapia »

kerpotgh wrote: post #32
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #11

If I remember correctly, Turkiyé (did I spel it write?) has always had a bunch of rolling heads, after buildings fall down like dominoes, during their frequent quakes. Doesn't seem to have changed things. Japan, on the other hand, seems to have a really hard-core construction ethos. During quakes there, buildings rock around like they are at a rave, and don't fall down. If we ever have a big quake in New York, we're…

Well New York isn’t on an active fault line. I think California would fare pretty well, as much as can be expected after the big one.

>as much as can be expected after the big one

It blows my mind to think that at some point in history the world's 2nd largest metro center (by GDP) is going to become rubble, and everyone knows about it, and we know it will happen for sure but there's not much that could be done but wait and see.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#75

Post by commandlinefan »

r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #59
conanbatt wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It cuts both ways. What about the homeless person dying in the cold because he can't afford shelter due to sky high building requirements - is that included in the building code enforcement rules?

That's not because of building codes. That's because of people who don't believe in helping their fellow man through, oh I don't know, paying taxes, supporting the welfare state, paying living wages etc.

> don't believe in helping their fellow man

Well, ok, since you started it - how much do you, personally, donate to homeless shelters and food banks? You have a lot of discretionary income to do so since your taxes are lower than you appear that you would like them to be.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#76

Post by marcosdumay »

mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

Well, the code is always overzealous (never met an exception), and the smaller the house the more overzealous it is.

If it wasn't, we would have a much easier time persecuting people that breaks it, and much more public sympathy for large culprits that actually have much fewer (relatively to their capacity) strings over then than any random person. The same applies to fire codes.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#77

Post by ajross »

mrlonglong wrote: post #55

Just out of interest for the layman, is there anything a non-expert like myself can examine on a building to assess its 'survivability' during an earthquake?

The examples in the linked article are reinforced concrete structure that were missing their steel reinforcement. So... no, not really, unless you have an xray setup or whatever. This is precisely why we have building codes and certified inspectors to sign off on construction projects.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#78

Post by Waterluvian »

moonchrome wrote: post #51
Waterluvian wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've seen a case where the local government wants to build more housing but, gosh, they're just too expensive. It's usually NIMBYism or just general disinterest in a "non-sexy" political issue.

This is entirely a "rich parts of the west" kind of a thing - and has nothing to do with Turkey

I think the earthquake is a standalone counter-argument to not wanting proper safety standards. Of the remaining buildings, how many are to be condemned as unsafe? I'm not sure what the homelessness problem is in Turkey, but I imagine it's now far worse.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#79

Post by wongarsu »

shadowpho wrote: post #45
mschuster91 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead. Or fire codes. Related off-topic reminder, in the hope it may save one life one day: please use this comment as a reminder to check upon the status of your smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alarms and fire extinguisher. At the very least every room where people sleep in should have a smoke alarm and every room with a furnace (boiler, oven, kitchen,…

> Fire extinguishers should be inspected by a licensed professional every two years Really? Do you know _anyone_ who does that? What will the professional do that we don't -- take a look at the charge level, take a look at manufacturer date?

Any commercial building I'm in (in Germany) does that. The fire extuingishers have little stickers when the next inspection is due, and seeing that out of date by more than two months or so is a major red flag. Same with fire extinguishers in the hallways of bigger apartment buildings.

For private people it's less common to do that.

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