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Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

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Re: Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

#71

Post by mig39 »

deaddodo wrote: post #40
IMTDb wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not showing up for work at all would definitely to considered "just cause" for most unions I've been involved in Not with some of the one I have had to deal with. There are tons of way to justify not coming to work and some unions representative (not all !) take a posture of « we will fight tooth and nail for every single employee that gets fired regardless of the reason ». This includes having handbooks of all the…

> There are tons of way to justify not coming to work and some unions representative (not all !) take a posture of « we will fight tooth and nail for every single employee that gets fired regardless of the reason ». This includes having handbooks of all the legal options at your disposal that are hard to counteract by management. As they should . This is the entire point of a union, to act as your collaborative defen…

I know in many union shops, there's a mutually-agreed process for termination. It's usually part of the Collective Agreement.

This process needs to be followed for termination.

Problem is, some middle-management type decides they want to fire a person (for cause), and doesn't follow the process. And even if they are correct in the substance of their action (ie: bad employee), they get stopped because they don't follow the agreed procedure.

So you have an incompetent manager trying to fire an incompetent employee, and this turns into the FUD of "unions protect bad employees!" When the reality is that the management is incompetent, and probably didn't even read the Collective Agreement.

Re: Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

#72

Post by nebula8804 »

gcr wrote: post #65
nebula8804 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then at the same time you have something like Volkswagen who just fired their CEO that was pushing hard into EVs. The inertia of the old ICE portion of the company (including the union people who may lose their jobs) just puts a hamper on their speed of execution which shouldn't be the case since incentives are generally aligned. If the company succeeds then the employees + union succeed as well. In this case it…

Tesla isn't exactly a fast-moving competitor. Musk has been saying full self-driving is coming "any day now" for at least six years and counting¹, but Tesla's own lawyers say it's still largely vaporware². Meanwhile, other EV manufacturers like Mercedes-Benz are handily outpacing Tesla in both functionality³ and legal responsibility⁴ toward the driver. Consumer Reports rated Cadillac's self-driving system higher than…

You spent your whole comment focusing on their self driving claims while ignoring the rest of the company.

If you look at how fast they are updating the internals of the cars, you'd see what I was talking about. Their engineering feedback loop is astounding. Things such as moving towards partial castings -> structural pack -> two piece castings etc. within 1.5 years is breakneck speed.

Simplifying the cooling loop design by using a software defined octovalve to eliminate a complete cooling loop in the system is a result of multiple divisions cross collaborating and integrating fast to try a new methodology. Instead of departments fighting with each other to protect their turf(and the end product ultimately suffering), they are breaking down barriers.

The VW ID4 has numerous complaints about their software and reliability. One example I know is that their battery casing is done by an external supplier and the extra mass hurts them in effective range. This is not the mentality that a fast moving company operates on. You bring up mercedes benz but they had to cancel their EQC EV because after so many delays it could not be competitive anymore so instead of launching it they just canceled it. This is after years of it being touted as a Tesla killer. I saw this car years ago at the NY auto show and after years of waiting it amounted to nothing.

[1]:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34696613

Re: Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

#73

Post by inferiorhuman »

nebula8804 wrote: post #72
gcr wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla isn't exactly a fast-moving competitor. Musk has been saying full self-driving is coming "any day now" for at least six years and counting¹, but Tesla's own lawyers say it's still largely vaporware². Meanwhile, other EV manufacturers like Mercedes-Benz are handily outpacing Tesla in both functionality³ and legal responsibility⁴ toward the driver. Consumer Reports rated Cadillac's self-driving system higher than…

You spent your whole comment focusing on their self driving claims while ignoring the rest of the company. If you look at how fast they are updating the internals of the cars, you'd see what I was talking about. Their engineering feedback loop is astounding. Things such as moving towards partial castings -> structural pack -> two piece castings etc. within 1.5 years is breakneck speed. Simplifying the cooling loop de…

  You spent your whole comment focusing on their self driving claims while
  ignoring the rest of the company.
The rest of the company? You mean the senior management that lord elno raided in an attempt to prop up Twitter?

  The VW ID4 has numerous complaints about their software and reliability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/software-update-bric...

https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1033by2/warnin...

That's some impressive software.

Re: Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

#74

Post by capableweb »

mig39 wrote: post #71
deaddodo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are tons of way to justify not coming to work and some unions representative (not all !) take a posture of « we will fight tooth and nail for every single employee that gets fired regardless of the reason ». This includes having handbooks of all the legal options at your disposal that are hard to counteract by management. As they should . This is the entire point of a union, to act as your collaborative defen…

I know in many union shops, there's a mutually-agreed process for termination. It's usually part of the Collective Agreement. This process needs to be followed for termination. Problem is, some middle-management type decides they want to fire a person (for cause), and doesn't follow the process. And even if they are correct in the substance of their action (ie: bad employee), they get stopped because they don't follo…

Sounds like things are working as they should then? The agreement is in place to prevent people being fired without cause and in the improper way, so if management is trying to fire someone with cause but in the improper way, they get stopped.

Re: Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

#75

Post by Jochim »

skippyboxedhero wrote: post #58
KennyBlanken wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the wake of someone driving an SUV through an Apple store, I saw a LinkedIn post by some VP of retail stores. They were in a position that sounded sort of like they were in an HR-ish, "people management" role. Lots of talk about family, and close knit this, and "it's my job to support them" that. The usual self-righteous linkedin bullshit, but unusually brazen given someone was killed and a couple people injured.…

$15/hour in Glasgow in retail is good. That is £19k/year net. The minimum wage in the UK is ~£9.50, and a lot of people in retail will be on substantially less (because the rate varies by age). You may not know a lot about Glasgow either, it isn't like "any urban area". It is one of the poorest places in the UK, massive opioid problem, lowest life expectancy in the UK (in the poorest areas), derelict housing everywhe…

While it isn't minimum wage £19k is an awful salary in Glasgow, especially for a luxury retail worker. In my experience larger employers avoid paying the reduced minimum wage, although it's more common in small businesses/hospitality or apprenticeships.

It's a bit odd to claim that government and retail are only big employers given the presence of the JP Morgan, Barclays, SSE etc.

It's true that the UK's policy of pursuing a service based economy has destroyed what was a fairly well paying industrial/manufacturing sector. Recent reports seem to indicate that despite record low unemployment, living standards of the average person are set to drop below much of eastern europe; despite being a much wealthier country.

Re: Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

#76

Post by nebula8804 »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #73
nebula8804 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You spent your whole comment focusing on their self driving claims while ignoring the rest of the company. If you look at how fast they are updating the internals of the cars, you'd see what I was talking about. Their engineering feedback loop is astounding. Things such as moving towards partial castings -> structural pack -> two piece castings etc. within 1.5 years is breakneck speed. Simplifying the cooling loop de…

You spent your whole comment focusing on their self driving claims while ignoring the rest of the company. The rest of the company? You mean the senior management that lord elno raided in an attempt to prop up Twitter? The VW ID4 has numerous complaints about their software and reliability. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/software-update-bric... https://old.reddit.c…

Clearly you are not going to be convinced because you came into this conversation with a conclusion and backtracked from that just like the other poster. That is a common problem when discussing both Tesla and Apple. Both companies evoke a lot of emotion and "foaming at the mouth" type responses. Both companies have continued track records of producing stellar engineering.

But for anyone else reading this try to separate your emotion for "lord elno" and just let the engineering speak for itself.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1kHsd3Ocxc

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-UilAalvE

[3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXpfU6I_T3w

Re: Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

#77

Post by inferiorhuman »

nebula8804 wrote: post #76
inferiorhuman wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You spent your whole comment focusing on their self driving claims while ignoring the rest of the company. The rest of the company? You mean the senior management that lord elno raided in an attempt to prop up Twitter? The VW ID4 has numerous complaints about their software and reliability. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/software-update-bric... https://old.reddit.c…

Clearly you are not going to be convinced because you came into this conversation with a conclusion and backtracked from that just like the other poster. That is a common problem when discussing both Tesla and Apple. Both companies evoke a lot of emotion and "foaming at the mouth" type responses. Both companies have continued track records of producing stellar engineering. But for anyone else reading this try to sepa…

  just let the engineering speak for itself
Is that a reference to the roofs flying off? Or the bumpers falling off? Or the wiper controls that were ruled illegal in Germany? Or the premature motor failures? Maybe the steering wheels that keep falling off?

https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/5/21502379/tesla-modely-roo...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/other/tesla-steering-wheels-...

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/bumper-falls-off-in-...

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101153_two-thirds-of-e...

https://electrek.co/2020/08/04/tesla-wiper-controls-ruled-il...

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098389_tesla-model-s-d...

  But for anyone else reading this try to separate your emotion
If you'd like to separate your emotion, well, how about the fact that lord elno gutted senior management and is spending most of his time these days babysitting Twitter? Tesla is fast becoming a rudderless entity. They're not well positioned to respond quickly to anything.

Re: Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

#78

Post by nebula8804 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #59
nebula8804 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise the cost of goods to make up for the loss in profit margin. Yeah people can go to PC/Android but there is enough value add(eg. iMessage, app store, continuity) that many will swallow their pride and stay in the ecosystem.

That's not something that would worry me as a negative if I was a union member on $15 an hour. Also they've been raising cost of goods for the last five years without any pressure from the unions. While wages of Apple store staff have been falling in relative terms. So I do not believe anything would change.

No but if they raise the cost in just the UK that is effectively a tax on everyone in favor of the unions. There is little to no loss on Apple's part in the long run.

Re: Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

#79

Post by closeparen »

doublepg23 wrote: post #6

It’s interesting seeing unionization back on the table in the 2020s. I worked at a union retail job for three years and saw the pros and cons firsthand. We had a problem employee who was untouchable regardless if he was completing his job duties (assuming he showed up at all). Eventually this came to a head as he would spend 30min+ in the restroom. To address this they instituted a “log all bathroom breaks” policy _f…

Organized labor is a mindset - management is the enemy, you are at war, their goals are not your goals. Why do you as a worker care about a problem employee? Are you feeling pressured to pick up the slack he leaves? Don't let management abuse you that way. Leave it undone. Are you personally invested in the smooth functioning of the store? Don't be. That's management's problem.

I think as engineers we like optimizing things. It feels almost intrinsically desirable for systems we encounter to be running well. And that gives us a level of sympathy for management's needs and goals that most unionized workers would interpret as betrayal.

Re: Apple signs union agreement for Glasgow Apple Store staff

#80

Post by Gordonjcp »

skippyboxedhero wrote: post #57
Gordonjcp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to look into Glasgow's history with the trade unions. When it comes to things like this, Glasgow is the epitome of "fuck around and find out".

The "find out" bit being finding out that you have no economy. The store is in the centre of Glasgow, by 2030 almost all of that area will be residential. Almost all the manufacturing jobs have gone. Docks have gone. Everything is gone. Govt and retail were the only major employers, retail is now going too (employee density of places outside the city is a fraction of what is was). This is stupid, the pay is fine for…

> Almost all the manufacturing jobs have gone. Docks have gone. Everything is gone.

Just like every other city in the UK. Gosh, I wonder what the common factor could be, eh?

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