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International Security and Estonia 2023

raport.valisluureamet.ee

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Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#71

Post by IndrekR »

usrnm wrote: post #37
engineer_22 wrote: post #4

For context, Estonia is a NATO member with significant Russian minority population

[flagged]

Not true.

Main requirement frequently mentioned preventing the citizenship is unwillingness to pass the language exam. Same or similar rules (understanding the language, accepting constitution, paying taxes, etc) apply in other countries, including Russia. One of the issues is that Estonia does not accept dual citizenship and Russian citizens are often not willing to give up their passport even when they have never lived there (this attitude has changed during the last year, however).

To make matters worse, some people (66k in JAN 2022) do not have citizenship, they however have a special status in Russia, making traveling there easier than with Estonian citizenship.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#72

Post by The_Colonel »

dmpk2k wrote: post #66
The_Colonel wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this war is entirely about NATO No, this is almost not at all about NATO. This is about Ukraine drifting from Russian sphere of influence to the western sphere of influence. Russia would not allow Ukraine to join EU either, even if it promised to never enter NATO. In short, this is about making Ukraine another Belarus.

You're not wrong, because that is true too, but it is NATO that scares Russia. Given Russia's long history of bloody invasions, I don't think this is something Americans can at all relate to. The American Civil War is small potatoes compared to some of the things that Russians (and other continental countries) have been through. It makes for a very paranoid country.

> Given Russia's long history of bloody invasions, I don't think this is something Americans can at all relate to.

This is something which most European countries can relate to, but they don't use it (anymore) to justify imperialism.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#73

Post by 01ce8c91872dd6d »

ceejayoz wrote: post #51
01ce8c91872dd6d wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Russia tried to pull that shit in the United States , and "do nothing" was largely our response.

you had a pretty long investigation that concluded that Russian involvement was a bit of money here and there

I assume having Russian equivalent of McCain, Nuland and CIA running around would provoke a more vigorous response

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#74

Post by ceejayoz »

dmpk2k wrote: post #42
lukeqsee wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russian officials already know that any “negotiation” or treaty signed with Kiev (in fact with the US) is not even worth the paper it is written on, I had hoped the Estonian “Foreign Intelligence Service” would have been aware of that. Can you substantiate this? Please provide to specific examples.

There are plenty. Russia is hardly a paragon of honestly, but from the Russian perspective there are plenty of examples to draw from about Western leaders ignoring agreements. The first and most obvious is this: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017... Then comes the withdrawal from various nuclear treaties, the first being this: https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/12/13/u.s.-exit-from-anti... G…

> The first and most obvious is this...

If Russia thinks a verbal assurance from the US SecState to a different country can bind NATO thirty years later as if it were a treaty, they're hopelessly naive. (They're not, of course. They know this is bullshit.)

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#75

Post by luckylion »

m2fkxy wrote: post #12
engineer_22 wrote: post #4

For context, Estonia is a NATO member with significant Russian minority population

Russian-speaking*. An interesting 2014 read on their inclusion re: national defence matters: https://icds.ee/wp-content/uploads/2014/Juhan_Kivirahk_-_Int...

They use the term ethnic Russian-speaking minorities, but from those minorities, it's ~89% Russians, ~8% Ukrainians and ~3% Belarusians. Not sure how much Pro-Russia sentiment there is among Ukrainians in Estonia but I'd be surprised if it's significant, so it's really "Russians" in 2023, even if it was broadly "Russian-speaking" in 2014.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#76

Post by enaaem »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #50
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a former USSR country (although not willingly), and it shares a border with Russia, and it's the most remote NATO country. That said, if Russia does try anything, that will escalate the conflict and get NATO involved directly.

>a former USSR country (although not willingly) Was the process of a joining the the USSR ever a willingly thing a country could choose to do or not to do? AFAIK, the process was something more like Russian army invades your country and says "Congrats comrades, you are now liberated and part of the Soviet Union", rather than "Hey, would you like to have a democratic vote on joining our Soviet Union? No hard feelings…

Interestingly, the USSR also held a referendum in the Baltics, but similar to Ukraine, it was after they invaded them and installed a puppet regime. The more you study history, the more you notice the same old tricks.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#77

Post by balderdash »

usrnm wrote: post #37
engineer_22 wrote: post #4

For context, Estonia is a NATO member with significant Russian minority population

[flagged]

Why would that entitle them to citizenship?

Citizenship by birth is, while not uncommon, far from the norm (especially in Europe).

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#78

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

enaaem wrote: post #76
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a former USSR country (although not willingly) Was the process of a joining the the USSR ever a willingly thing a country could choose to do or not to do? AFAIK, the process was something more like Russian army invades your country and says "Congrats comrades, you are now liberated and part of the Soviet Union", rather than "Hey, would you like to have a democratic vote on joining our Soviet Union? No hard feelings…

Interestingly, the USSR also held a referendum in the Baltics, but similar to Ukraine, it was after they invaded them and installed a puppet regime. The more you study history, the more you notice the same old tricks.

But was the referendum a fair and independent one, recognized and verified by the international community, or was it a sham referendum under threat of invasion, like the one in Austria for joining Nazi Germany, with a huge YES option in the middle, and a small NO option in the corner[1]?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Austrian_Anschluss_refere...

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#79

Post by tokai »

dmpk2k wrote: post #52
tokai wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others has also cleared up the lies and misquotes. Why do you jump directly to tangent lies, instead of dealing with the main argument - that we are where we are because of Russia not upholding its promises?

It seems to me that neither side was upholding its promises. There are no angels here.

Well in any non-delusional interpretation of the events Russia broke their promise of Ukrainian independence and security in 2014. Don't mention any terror bombings of Donetsk, as they have never taken place and civilians has not been dying in any numbers since '14 when Russia went into Ukraine. As documented by numerous ngos. Only Russia is in the wrong here. Full Stop. People like you are cheering on killings of civilians and colonialism.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#80

Post by qaq »

I wonder why Russia gets a pass from the left and right on being pretty brutal colonial empire. Even in present day borders Russia is composed of literally hundreds of colonised nations that get exploited and brutalised for the benefit of Moscow.
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