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The limits of "computational photography"

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Re: The limits of "computational photography"

#71
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly like it was explained. People who speaks French or German (I'm just referring the language. No offense please), could only talk to people who know that language. While the majority is English speaking (Hypothetically!), it might make sense to speak that and also, whatever 10bit or 8Bit, the sensor size and capabilities matter. Most of the perception is seriously overrated with the iDevices (the displays and t…

This isn't true. I've done a lot of action photography. The stabilization of video really is pretty close to a GoPro (and why not - it's software). The ability to do 4K video is much better than most cameras. > One needs all idevice and isoftware ecosystem to function and survive in the iworld. And that world is mostly controlled and directed by the company! I don't understand this. You take the photos or movies off…

To be fair, the second you export a picture from an iDevice, it auto-converts it back to JPG with SDR sRGB, to make it compatible with the terrible hardware and software in the rest of the world.

You can upload HDR videos[1] however. I put mine up on YouTube and send Android users the link. This doesn't preserve 100% of the quality, because YouTube doesn't support Dolby Vision and hence is forced to recompress the content into a HDR10 stream. Nonetheless, you get 4K 60fps HDR video that "just works" and generally looks good on any high-end device such as flagship Samsung phone.

[1] Video formats in general have left still imaging in the dust. It's absurd, but the best approach for sharing high quality photography is to encode the still images into a video, like a slide show, and then share that. How nuts is that!?

Re: The limits of "computational photography"

#72
Haven’t felt like the camera on my iPhone 13 is significantly better than the one on my iPhone 7 at all in terms of basic quality. My shots look about the same.

As someone who upgrades every several years I’ve been wondering how people who upgrade every year and rave about the camera being better are even seeing at this point.

(Stills only I’m talking about)

Re: The limits of "computational photography"

#73
I don't have any examples from my own film photography handy, but a quick google brings up

https://www.35mmc.com/10/01/2015/low-light-fun-ilford-hp5-ei...

3200ISO on black-and-white film was pushing it pretty hard. Yet these pictures look good, in a noisy kind of way. Let an algorithm loose on them and it'll "fix" things, first and foremost by smoothing the skin. Even older low-end dedicated digital cameras do this, some brands more than others. The pictures in low light feel more like a badly done painting than a good, honest, albeit noisy photo. One possibility is that the noise from a digital sensor is not as uniformly pleasing as that from film, so it must be masked.

Re: The limits of "computational photography"

#74
post #57
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re missing what makes iPhone photos look so good; they do much more than just ramping up the sliders on sharpness. When you take sunlit panoramas for instance, the iPhone will auto bracket and perform hdr treatment, it’s fantastic : you can see both the ground and the blue sky and the clouds. You can’t do that easily with a dslr, certainly not like a phone is doing right now, which is integrating the last…

> You can’t do that easily with a dslr, certainly not like a phone is doing right now, which is integrating the last x frames and modulating the digital shutter to capture multiple exposures. Standalone cameras have been doing this for at least a decade. The same is true for nighttime exposures. That's not to say that the iPhone doesn't do it better, maybe it does, it certainly can throw more processing power at it.…

My mirror less Olympus does this as well. Set number of f stops, exposures etc all in-camera

Re: The limits of "computational photography"

#75
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no reason to do this. If you want to apply the algorithms and Iphone uses, simply take a burst and post process later for HDR or whatever. I remember being in middle school and messing around with Hugin and my Minolta bridge camera… People value quick shots/edits and don’t care about quality or editing things later don’t mind an iPhone doing all this behind the scene - but it is irreversible. The sort of err…

>camera manufacturers simply don’t have the same compute available. what forbids them from buying the competitive SoCs from Qualcomm? Pride?

They would have to rewrite entirely their software. There had been some attemps to use these Qualcomm processors in cameras (the Yi M1 for example) and the result was terrible, the autofocus specially.

Re: The limits of "computational photography"

#76

Haven’t felt like the camera on my iPhone 13 is significantly better than the one on my iPhone 7 at all in terms of basic quality. My shots look about the same. As someone who upgrades every several years I’ve been wondering how people who upgrade every year and rave about the camera being better are even seeing at this point. (Stills only I’m talking about)

Have you done a side-by-side comparison? I have noticed huge improvements.

Re: The limits of "computational photography"

#77

Haven’t felt like the camera on my iPhone 13 is significantly better than the one on my iPhone 7 at all in terms of basic quality. My shots look about the same. As someone who upgrades every several years I’ve been wondering how people who upgrade every year and rave about the camera being better are even seeing at this point. (Stills only I’m talking about)

Have you done a side-by-side comparison? I have noticed huge improvements.

Exactly, HDR, colors, shadows, night shots all of that makes a huge difference. Take a night shot side by side between the two phones you listed. If there is no difference it’s because you never took those pictures. Maybe a camera it’s just a camera for you. Point shoot done. The difference in various lightning situation are huge but you don’t take that much photos or care enough ?

Re: The limits of "computational photography"

#78
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sensors may have the time, but our hands do not; they are unsteady in subtle ways. When making photos in low light, I always try to lean my phone against something (a bench, a lamppost, a tree, a building) to let the longer exposure be sharper.

as long as there is anything to key onto it's possible to remove the shake algorithmically

Maybe, but it looks like a problem of unscrambling an egg. The true image has been smeared over the sensor, superimposed on itself a bit. Maybe there is a good enough solution for the problem of finding the true image, but I can't imagine it to be computationally inexpensive.

Re: The limits of "computational photography"

#79
post #46

I would like to see computational photography applied to raw images from DSLRs and MILCs with APS-C and larger sensors. Perhaps Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Fujifilm could have built-in options in their cameras for ‘social media mode’, with a modicum of noise reduction (honestly unnecessary at ISOs lower than about 1600 for modern cameras), but drastically improved HDR and white balance. Many of these cameras are able to…

They already are. However, most photographers do not appreciate this type of distortion being applied to their images. At a glance, my samsung note 22 ultra takes better picture than my nikon d7500. At a glance. However, as soon as you want to actually DO anything to it, like, view it in any real detail, or on anything but a tiny screen, reality returns.. While the phone is absolutely fantastic for a quick snapshot,…

Similarly sometimes I just want to apply whatever ai magic elixir my phone does to the raw image from my DSLR.

Messing around in lightroom etc is just not worth it for hundreds of shots I take per day sometimes.

Re: The limits of "computational photography"

#80
I accept that there is a place for computational/algorithmic photography but I remain deeply sceptical of its actual benefits (in its current incarnation), moreover my recent bad experiences with it have only strengthened my conviction.

I have previously discussed having taken photos with a smartphone where certain objects within some images have been so modified by the processing algorithm as to be almost unrecognizable so I won't repeat those various scenarios here. Instead, I'd like to dwell on the implications algorithmic image processing for a moment.

Let's briefly look at the issues:

1. Despite a recent announcement by Canon about a large increase in dynamic range in imaging, (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34527687), I'm unaware of any current imaging sensor breakthrough that would vastly improve both resolution and dynamic range. Thus, essentially, we have to live with what we're already capable of physically squeezing into our present smartphones.

2. Manufacturers are improving both image sensors and optics but only incrementally. Thus, with current tech and absence of truly significant breakthroughs, we have to live with the limitations as outlined in the article (aberrations, lens flare, sensor insensitivity etc.).

3. Essentially, we're stymied both by the limitations of current tech and physical (smartphone) size. Usually, to overcome such limitations, we'd fall back on the old truism 'there's no substitute for capacity' and just make things bigger as we did with photographic emulsions, past camera lenses, loudspeakers, pipe organs, etc. but that's not possible here.

4. Outside incremental improvements in hardware—the Law of Diminishing (hardware) Returns having arrived—manufacturers have had to resort to computational methods. The trouble is that it seems with the present algorithms that the Law of Diminishing (computational) Returns is also already upon us, so what does this mean? Quo vadis?

5. Clearly, in its current form computational/algorithmic processing has hit a stumbling block or at least a major hiatus. Here, further incremental improvements are likely using current methods and there's little doubt that they'll be applied to recreational photography (smartphones and such), however, unfortunately, we now have a serious (and very obvious) problem with the authenticity of images taken by these cameras.

Simply, when software starts guessing what's within images then we've not only lost visual authentication but we have serious downstream issues. It raises questions about whether or not photographic evidence based on computational imaging can be relied upon—or even submitted—as evidence in a court of law (I'd reckon, without ancillary cooperating/conjunctive evidence, such images would not muster if the Rules of Evidence tests were applied.

How serious is this? Clearly, it depends on circumstance but long before 'guessing-what's-in-the-image' became in vogue simple compression was 'suspect' in, for example, serious surveillance work—because compression artifacts in an image raised doubts as to what objects actually were—simply, could objects be identified with 100% certainty, if not then what figure could be placed on such measurements/identifications.

(Such matters are not hypotheticals or idle speculation, I recall in nuclear safeguards a debate over compression artifacts in remote monitoring equipment. Here, authenticating and identifying objects must meet strict criteria and a failure to authenticate (fully identify) them means a failure of surveillance which is a big deal! For example, the failure to distinguish between, say, round cables and pipes with 100% certainty could be a serious problem, as the latter could be used to transport nuclear materials—thus it'd be deemed a failure of surveillance. That's not out of the bounds of possability in a reprocessing plant.)

Obviously, the need to authenticate what's in an image with 100% certainty isn't a daily occurrence for most of us but as these tiny cameras become more and more important and ubiquitous then we'll start seeing them used in areas where their images must be able to be authenticated.

Post haste, we need rules and standards about how these computational algorithms process images and how they should be applied.

6. What's the future. On the hardware side we need better sensors with higher resolution and more sensitivity and improved optics (that, say, use metamaterials etc.). Such developments are on their way but don't hold your breath.

Computational/algorithmic processing has the potential to do much, much better, but again don't hold your breath. There's considerable potential to correct focus and aberration problems etc. using both front-end and back-end computational methods ('front-end correcting lenses etc. on-the-fly and back-end as post-image processing) but much work still has to be done. Note: such methods also don't rely on guessing.

What people often forget is that when a lens cannot fully focus or suffers aberrations, etc. information in the incoming light is not lost—it's just jumbled up (remember your quantum information theory).

In the past untangling this mess has been seen as an almost insurmountable problem and it's still a very, very difficult one to resolve. Nevertheless, I'd wager that eventually computational processing of this order will be commonplace, moreover, it'll likely provide some of the most significant advances in imaging we're ever likely to witness.

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