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A Look into Medieval Homes

medievalists.net

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Re: A Look into Medieval Homes

#71

Post by kiliantics »

woodruffw wrote: post #52
kiliantics wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in NYC, "greatest city in the world," and I encounter rats almost daily. Almost every apartment here will have a cockroach problem at some point. And since most of the city is a food desert, it takes pretty serious determination to eat a balanced diet, and usually at quite a cost. So, notwithstanding all the negative points mentioned in this thread, I agree there are still many aspects of medieval peasant life…

What part of the city do you live in that’s a food desert? They definitely exist, but I wouldn’t say they’re anywhere near common (especially relative the city’s staggering wealth disparities)[1]. [1]: https://medium.com/@olivialimone/mapping-food-deserts-and-sw...

This map is great and all but it's mostly worthless without actually going into the grocery stores and checking how the fruits and vegetables look. I live in Brooklyn but it's pretty well known that good quality fresh produce is not easy to get in the city, especially not for cheap, if you compare with other cities. You have to join a CSA or make the trip to chinatown or something like that, which is just not an option for a lot of people.

Re: A Look into Medieval Homes

#72

Post by Spooky23 »

Aunche wrote: post #70
Spooky23 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn’t necessarily choose anything. As the feudal system broke down, those peasants were released from the land. (ie kicked out)

Not true. The wealthy were more than happy to employ peasants. Even as late as 1800, hundreds of years after the feudal system, 78% of Europeans were peasants. https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-...

Sure, but much fewer than in earlier times. There’s a reason the British liked to ship people off to America, Australia, etc.

I’d suggesting googling the term “enclosure”, specifically with regard to England. Similar issues and conflicts happened in other places.

The progression/transformation was not quick, cheap or without significant conflict.

Re: A Look into Medieval Homes

#73

Post by Aunche »

Spooky23 wrote: post #72
Aunche wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. The wealthy were more than happy to employ peasants. Even as late as 1800, hundreds of years after the feudal system, 78% of Europeans were peasants. https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-...

Sure, but much fewer than in earlier times. There’s a reason the British liked to ship people off to America, Australia, etc. I’d suggesting googling the term “enclosure”, specifically with regard to England. Similar issues and conflicts happened in other places. The progression/transformation was not quick, cheap or without significant conflict.

> I’d suggesting googling the term “enclosure”, specifically with regard to England

Yes. I've heard this argument before. That doesn't change my argument though. Without industrialization, peasant life would be just not bad, if not worse because more people would be completing for the same resources.

Re: A Look into Medieval Homes

#74

Post by secabeen »

automatic6131 wrote: post #33
ricardobayes wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to look at feudal tax rates. It varied between countries but the concept of "thirteenth" seems to be common, based on what I see it used to be between 2% and 10% of "revenue". I wonder when did we normalize 40-60% taxation. Seems we made a wrong turn somewhere. Perhaps our convenient modern life wouldn't be sustainable on such low taxes, but maybe it would - looking at Monaco or Dubai firmly at 0%.

>I wonder when did we normalize 40-60% taxation It's generally common, these days, to blame everything that isn't perfect on the state. Pandemic? State must sort it out. Bad parents? State. Interpersonal violence? State. Crime? State. Infrastructure needed? State. Children are hungry? State. For better or ill (and I'd say better) 40% taxation is here to stay, since we have all become left wing, now.

>Pandemic? State must sort it out. Bad parents? State. Interpersonal violence? State. Crime? State. Infrastructure needed? State. Children are hungry? State.

> For better or ill (and I'd say better) 40% taxation is here to stay, since we have all become left wing, now.

I think it's largely better, because people who are impacted by those incidents in an outsized way often become revolutionaries, or radicals, and they tear down the state that has failed to support them. I'd rather pay 30-40% tax and have a stable government and a low-crime society than a 15-20% one and have to pay for my own personal security and to worry if the next government is going to decide that my property is to be seized.

Re: A Look into Medieval Homes

#75

Post by Nomentatus »

guntherhermann wrote: post #10
null_object wrote: post #2

Setting aside the problem (mentioned in the article) that these images were produced for an aristocratic class, and possibly don’t accurately describe the reality of a peasant’s home, then what’s most striking is how decorative the interiors are: patterned floors, painted walls, and neat carpentry. I’ve read the theory that the life of peasants in the Middle Ages was demonized and made to sound dystopian to encourage…

The life of a peasant was one of serfdom, watching too many of your children die before their 4th birthday. The wheat you grew you had to mill in a landlord's mill and they collected a tax from it. There was no light in the evenings because tallow or other wax was far too expensive so when it got dark there were limited things to do. Floors were covered in rushes instead of carpet and were host to bugs. True medicine…

There's a big divide here though, between pre-Black Death (poverty as you describe) and the couple centuries afterward. It took forever for population numbers to recover (more than two centuries, in England) and things were much better during that period. Infant death remained very high until recent times, of course.

Re: A Look into Medieval Homes

#76

Post by kwhitefoot »

dalke wrote: post #67
kwhitefoot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be small partly because several of the feature of modern homes that are regarded as indispensable now were mostly absent from such dwellings: kitchens, bathrooms, and toilets in particular. I have an ex-colleague who lives with his wife in Oslo in a 45 sq. m. flat but that does include a bathroom, kitchen, and a bedroom. That would feel claustrophobic to me having lived for the last 34 years in a house wit…

> Oslo in a 45 sq. m. flat While I live in Sweden (about 4 hours away from Oslo by train), I think the two countries are sufficiently similar that I can mention some of my experiences moving here from the US. Many apartments here have a shared laundry room/area, with washer and dryer, or drying cabinet/room, and place to iron/fold. I think just about every apartment also has a storage area, either in the basement or…

What you say and add to my comment is pretty much the case. I used to live in a flat in Drammen, much bigger though, about 72 sq. m. We had a storage area in the loft of the building and as you say there were communal washing machines. But in fact we would have had plenty of space to have our own washer and dryer.

I would make one point though:

> the two countries are sufficiently similar

That's true for most of this discussion but Norwegians until quite recently almost overwhelmingly wanted to own their own their home (over 80% do) and prefer a detached house, most still do. In 2010 according to SSB half of the just over two million dwellings in Norway were detached houses (enebolig). My impression of Sweden when visiting places like Gothenburg, Västerås, Linköping, Ludvika, etc., on business and holiday is that Swedes are noticeably more likely to live in flats. My house is pretty much in the middle of the size distribution for detached houses (see https://www.ssb.no/bygg-bolig-og-eiendom/faktaside/bolig)

Re: A Look into Medieval Homes

#77

Post by dalke »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #76
dalke wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oslo in a 45 sq. m. flat While I live in Sweden (about 4 hours away from Oslo by train), I think the two countries are sufficiently similar that I can mention some of my experiences moving here from the US. Many apartments here have a shared laundry room/area, with washer and dryer, or drying cabinet/room, and place to iron/fold. I think just about every apartment also has a storage area, either in the basement or…

What you say and add to my comment is pretty much the case. I used to live in a flat in Drammen, much bigger though, about 72 sq. m. We had a storage area in the loft of the building and as you say there were communal washing machines. But in fact we would have had plenty of space to have our own washer and dryer. I would make one point though: > the two countries are sufficiently similar That's true for most of this…

> Norwegians until quite recently almost overwhelmingly wanted to own their own their home (over 80% do)

https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/sverige-i-siffror/mannisk... says that in 2021, of the over 4.8 million Swedish households (which may be multiple people):

  Småhus, äganderätt / detached house, owner - 1 909 024 = 41.2%
  Småhus, bostadsrätt / detacted house, co-op owner - 93 678 = 2.02%
  Småhus, hyresrätt / detached house, rent - 73 654 = 1.59%
  Flerbostadshus, bostadsrätt / multi-family building, co-op - 1 006 560 = 21.7%
  Flerbostadshus, hyresrätt / multi-family building, rent - 1 379 720 = 29.8 %
  Specialbostad / special (student, old-age, etc) - 165 510 = 3.6%
If I read https://www.ssb.no/bygg-bolig-og-eiendom/bolig-og-boforhold/... correct (via Google Translate):

48.1% / 1,198,659 households live in single family houses ("Enebolig"). The Swedish "småhus" total is 44.9%.

47% / 1,170,000 or so live in multi-family housing ("Tomannsbolig" / "Rekkehus, kjedehus, andre småhus" / "Boligblokk"), compared to 51.6% in Sweden.

4.9% / 121,486 live in "other", which I'll map to the 3.6% "specialbostad" in Sweden.

This matches your observation that more Swedes tend to live in multi-family homes compared to Norwegians, though I don't think it's a substantial difference. (I hope I did my numbers correct!)

FWIW, my impression of visiting Oslo is that they mostly live in flats too. grin

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