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Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

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Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#71

Post by elif »

fsh wrote: post #39

I don't think that this is a very good application for the technology. Compared to lithium batteries, synthetic fuels have much higher energy density, but much lower energy efficiency. Modern EVs achieve plenty of range, charge quickly, and the somewhat larger weight doesn't really matter in a vehicle, unless you want to race it. However, I am quite excited about using them for CO2-neutral long-distance flights. Bein…

Except it's not CO2 neutral.

It just didn't come from dinosaurs, it's still a long hydrocarbon that burns.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#72

Post by dsfyu404ed »

xnzakg wrote: post #69
PaulHoule wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Qatar claims their Methanol-to-Gasoline based factory is profitable at a world price of $40 a barrel based on natural gas as a feed stock. What people are hoping for today is to get CO₂ from the atmosphere and hydrogen from H₂O with electricity from solar, wind or nuclear. (Though w/ nuclear you might use thermochemical hydrogen if you can get the temperature up) The best use case for that I've seen is that the US Na…

Not to mention leaded fuel still being a thing in aviation

Not anymore. You need to update your talking points.

The FAA got off their butts and approved the unloaded substitute in 2022 and it's starting to roll out.

Airports want it ASAP because the (IIRC) ~20% higher cost is a cheap price to pay to not have to listen to people complain.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#73

Post by dsfyu404ed »

elif wrote: post #71
fsh wrote: post #39

I don't think that this is a very good application for the technology. Compared to lithium batteries, synthetic fuels have much higher energy density, but much lower energy efficiency. Modern EVs achieve plenty of range, charge quickly, and the somewhat larger weight doesn't really matter in a vehicle, unless you want to race it. However, I am quite excited about using them for CO2-neutral long-distance flights. Bein…

Except it's not CO2 neutral. It just didn't come from dinosaurs, it's still a long hydrocarbon that burns.

What timeline for CO2 neutrality will satisfy you?

The fuel in TFA game from ag-waste. So presumably it's carbon neutral on a ~1-2yr timeline.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#74

Post by kybernetyk »

brk wrote: post #66
mfer wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost to transition away from fossil fuels isn’t really talked about much. For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

All the crypto mining dying off should free up a lot of grid resources for EVs. I've heard the "grid can't handle all EVs" statement, but have not seen anything backing up the claim. I believe the grid can in fact handle EVs becoming prevalent. We might need more power generation , which could be new plants, and/or residential solar. Baring some kind of crazy legislation requiring ICE vehicles to be crushed or perman…

In Germany the government asked people not to use electric heaters this winter because the grid could break down.

An ev drains way more power then a 2kw space heater.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#76

Post by s0rce »

brk wrote: post #66
mfer wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost to transition away from fossil fuels isn’t really talked about much. For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

All the crypto mining dying off should free up a lot of grid resources for EVs. I've heard the "grid can't handle all EVs" statement, but have not seen anything backing up the claim. I believe the grid can in fact handle EVs becoming prevalent. We might need more power generation , which could be new plants, and/or residential solar. Baring some kind of crazy legislation requiring ICE vehicles to be crushed or perman…

The grid seems fine from my non-expert view, its sized for peak loads on the highest capacity days. EV charging can be done at night once AC use drops off. In my 5 years in California there was maybe 1-2 days midsummer when there wasn't enough power and still was entirely due to inadequate generation and high usage in neighboring states as well which limited imports.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#77

Post by aitchnyu »

theshrike79 wrote: post #16
cuteboy19 wrote: post #2

I think heavy duty trucks and such will still work on gasoline even in an EV future. So why don't these companies try to solve that problem in a carbon neutral way?

Heavy duty vehicles will move to either diesel/biogas hybrids (they can replace ~30% of the diesel with gas nowadays without any major engine mods) or to full CBG with combustion engines. Farms can produce their own CBG with relatively minor investment, basically fueling all work vehicles with cow farts =) Some kind of hydrogen/biogas generator hybrid might be viable too. Some will become fully electric, but it's hea…

Having trouble parsing this, does this mean there is a liquid fuel thats diesel+cow farts or will diesel engines incorporate compressed biogas injection?

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#78

Post by elif »

marcus0x62 wrote: post #25
denton-scratch wrote: post #8

> Simply put, the synthetic fuel operated much like normal gasoline would have, without the emission drawbacks of the latter. Hmmm. The fuel is hydrocarbons; so the emissions are at minimum CO2 and particulates.

The usual theory here is that fuels made from plants are carbon neutral in that while the fuel produces CO2 when burned, the plant it was made from consumed an equivalent amount of CO2 while alive. (Which, even if true ignores particulate and NOX emissions. See also: green washing.)

"made from plants" will need a citation.

The Porsche/Exxon syn fuel uses natural gas as it's feedstock, for instance.

I'm pretty sure the Mazda pr guy was just smart enough to omit that detail, not that they are hiding it's magical eco friendly origins.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#79

Post by marcosdumay »

mfer wrote: post #51
i_am_proteus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and: the question revolves around total financial and material capital needed to transition away from fossil fuels. Synthetic fuels are potentially valuable because they allow existing capital assets (internal combustion engines and the industry that produces them, fuel distribution infrastructure) to continue to be used. I am glad to see research into them continue- it's difficult to predict what will scale wel…

The cost to transition away from fossil fuels isn’t really talked about much. For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

Oh, you mean some non-zero investment is required? What change doesn't require investment?

In all likelihood, gasoline transportation costs an order of magnitude more than electricity. And that's not just infrastructure that is already paid for. There is a much larger maintenance cost, an ongoing labor cost, and a much shorter useful life for anything related to fossil fuels.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#80

Post by elif »

greenthrow wrote: post #24

Synthetic fuels should only be used going forward for hobbyists who want to keep classic cars going. They likely will be, and should be, expensive. Even if they are "carbon neutral" (unlikely as they still have higher costs associated with transportation than electricity), they still involve burning which always creates pollution, and any ICE requires lubrication and cooling which also today involves toxic chemicals.…

And as here, syn fuels are useful for satisfying regulators.
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