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Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

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Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#71

Post by lynndotpy »

nickthegreek wrote: post #70
lynndotpy wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple already lists many limitations of their technology, and not everyone has the benefit of the knowledge of the limitations of each component of the devices. Many customers of the Watch have not even been around for decades plural. We pay Apple to understand the internals they put in their watch, so they should be the ones to describe the limitations of their technology.

Companies marketing departments do not go around creating a list of issues with their products unless a government mandates they do so (rx meds, nicotine, liquor). I am unaware of Apple listing limitations of any of their technologies. Could you provide a few examples?

Yes-- there are a plethora of examples. Here is one page full of them, and I doubt these are all mandated: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-watch/apple-watch-ultra

Brightness, battery, cell support, limited water and dust resistance, etc. are the most obvious ones. The footnotes list other details, including demographics on which certain features are less effective.

For example,

> Irregular rhythm notification requires the latest version of watchOS and iOS. It is not intended for use by people under 22 years old or those who have been previously diagnosed with atrial fibrillation (AFib).

As someone else linked in the thread, it turns out Apple actually does claim their oximeter method is special and improves on conventional oximetry, accounting for the range of human skin tones: https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Blood_Oxygen_app_...

If their O2 meter functions poorly depending on skin tone, that's very obviously worth noting in a footer.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#72

Post by ashwagary »

Someone wrote: post #56
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are slightly different rules for health devices than for leisure ones. If the problem is real, then it seems reasonable to me for Apple (and everyone else, just to be clear) to be made to amend their printed materials to properly disclose well-known-to-Apple problems with oximetry in darker skin. Again, if the problem is real, then they guy deserves a refund, fees covered, maybe a small token for the effort, an…

> and for Apple to not make product claims that it can't fulfill. What claim did they make? AFAIK, their page on the oximeter always had a disclaimer (the current one says “Blood Oxygen app measurements are not intended for medical use, including self-diagnosis or consultation with a doctor, and are only designed for general fitness and wellness purposes” )

A better disclaimer would state the possibility that these oxygen readings are inaccurate for more than 50% of the world's population.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#73

Post by [deleted] »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #40

Doesn't the person filing the suit, by the wording of the suit, admit to expecting inaccuracy based on skin color before buying the device? Also, did they sue Garmin and Fitbit similarly? If not, it's kind of a self confessed money grab attempt in full daylight.

[deleted]

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#74

Post by ashwagary »

nerdponx wrote: post #10
shagie wrote: post #4

The complaint is also available at https://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.nysd.591590 - the pdf is https://ia601507.us.archive.org/26/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5... The initial part of the complaint: 1. Apple, Inc. (“Defendant”) manufactures, markets, and sells the Apple Watch, purporting to measure the oxygen level of a wearer’s blood directly from their wrist (“Product”). 2. The interest in blood oxygen levels exte…

This seems like an attempt to hold up Apple as some kind of proxy for the medical industry. I'm not sure what they hope to get out of this, other than raising awareness of a long-standing problem with pulse oximeters and dark skin (I certainly didn't know about it before now).

If all they accomplish is raising awareness, it will be worth it to more than half of the world's population.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#75

Post by autoexec »

mcphage wrote: post #63
nightpool wrote: post #24

Companies get sued by random people for stuff like this all the time, I don't think there's anything here that indicates this is particularly newsworthy or exceptional. This is the same class-action lawyer who sued Kellogs for not putting enough strawberry ingredients into their strawberry poptarts: https://www.npr.org/2021/10/30/1050175655/strawberry-pop-tar... . Apparently (according to that NPR article) he files ~…

> This is the same class-action lawyer who sued Kellogs for not putting enough strawberry ingredients into their strawberry poptarts I'm definitely against frivolous lawsuits, but that doesn't seem like a good example of one to me. "Product isn't what it claims" seems like a totally valid lawsuit.

Exactly. I have no problems with someone going after false or misleading advertising.

Does any brand make a decent toaster ready alternative that isn't just flavored sugar but actually contains a decent amount of actual strawberry filling?

I'll give Kellogg's some credit for having the other fruits listed in the ingredients and making it clear there is very little fruit at all. It looks like strawberry pop-tarts may contain more salt than strawberry.

ingredients on the box says:

wheat flour, sugar, sugar, sugar, oil, sugar, and wheat flour.

Contains 2% or less of wheat starch, salt, dried strawberries, dried pears, dried apples, baking soda/baking powder, citric acid, gelatin, more wheat starch, yellow corn flour, caramel color, xanthan gum, corn starch, turmeric extract color, soy lecithin, red 40, yellow 6, blue 1

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#76

Post by ashwagary »

bfgoodrich wrote: post #47
mjhay wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's marketed as being accurate. It's not for large segments of the population. This is clearly a serious problem (and with all pulse oximeters). How is that absurd?

The Apple Watch oximeter functionality -- basically a pretty silly gimmick -- is explicitly marketed as “not intended for medical use” and “only designed for general fitness and wellness purposes.” The problems that optical oximeters have with darker skin is well known, painfully obvious, and a basic reality of physics.

I doubt it is "well known" to the billions of darker skinned potential Apple customers.

Going further, the vast majority of retail consumers have no knowledge of technical limitations regardless of skin color.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#77

Post by nickthegreek »

lynndotpy wrote: post #71
nickthegreek wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies marketing departments do not go around creating a list of issues with their products unless a government mandates they do so (rx meds, nicotine, liquor). I am unaware of Apple listing limitations of any of their technologies. Could you provide a few examples?

Yes-- there are a plethora of examples. Here is one page full of them, and I doubt these are all mandated: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-watch/apple-watch-ultra Brightness, battery, cell support, limited water and dust resistance, etc. are the most obvious ones. The footnotes list other details, including demographics on which certain features are less effective. For example, > Irregular rhythm notification requires…

Most of those seem like technical specifications but I get what you are saying. I just don’t understand how this is a winnable case unless they prove that Apples approach is actually worse than other oximeters. And that seems incredibly unlikely.

Re: Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

#78

Post by 1123581321 »

ashwagary wrote: post #72
Someone wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and for Apple to not make product claims that it can't fulfill. What claim did they make? AFAIK, their page on the oximeter always had a disclaimer (the current one says “Blood Oxygen app measurements are not intended for medical use, including self-diagnosis or consultation with a doctor, and are only designed for general fitness and wellness purposes” )

A better disclaimer would state the possibility that these oxygen readings are inaccurate for more than 50% of the world's population.

Such a disclaimer would say 100%.
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