“Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007) • Hacker News Board

Re: “Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007)

#71

Post by msrenee » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

giorgosts wrote: post #44

Bullshit story the consultant made up to bolster his point (93% efficiency claim from a foreman wtf). Of course finding some help moving parts around for the welders would be the first thing the foreman would think of, because thats what foremans do all the time in factories. Maybe the welders chose to work this way (i.e. inefficiently) because continuous welding produces fatigue which risks H&S and lowers the qualit…

This has to be either the world's dumbest foreman or at least largely fiction. And this consultant would have had to have been the first guy who walked into the shop besides the foreman and the welders who either also had never worked in a functioning production environment or had already told the foreman to hire a material handler and been ignored. Or they really liked the overtime and dragging pallet jacks around.

I've seen some pretty terrible inventory management and poor process flow, but this is a whole other level.

Re: “Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007)

#72

Post by msrenee » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #36

twobitshifter wrote: post #14

It's incredible that one person was able to handle all the work that took up 90% of the welders time. Lots of time must have been spent getting in and out of gear. I’d expect that one guy to end up the bottleneck and the welders to be waiting for him to bring them parts, but it says he even as time to peel the plastic! I imagine the blue light applied to programming would be a crude tool. I want to hear keys clacking…

> Lots of time must have been spent getting in and out of gear. My understanding from reading that is the new helper didn't have to get in and out of gear. He wasn't a welder, so wasn't wearing any of the welding gear. His job was to help move things around, position materials so they'd be ready to work on, and generally get the "grunt work" out of the way so the welders could keep their gear on 100% of the time and…

What gear are they having to take off besides their hood, btw? I'm pretty sure anything you'd need respiratory gear to weld on would be added after it was welded. It's not like you make truck bumpers out of stainless steel. You'd want to keep your gloves on to lift with. No reason to take off your jacket, sleeves, apron, or anything else you'd use welding in a shop.

Re: “Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007)

#73

Post by omeysalvi » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 5:23 PM UTC

Even if the story is true, taking this attitude to the extremes is what leads companies like Amazon to time warehouse workers down to the last second and set increasingly aggressive targets every year. It is easy to deal with people when they are just a bunch of numbers in a excel sheet. No wonder they are going to run out of workers to hire in the US by 2024, as their own memo said.

Re: “Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007)

#74

Post by yuubi » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 7:03 PM UTC

anenefan wrote: post #41

I know most people are gushing with positives ... but to me this reads like the epitome of a clueless consultant who got lucky because the 30 plus years manager missed the basics ... unless the era of the tale was early 60s or something or some middle of nowhere fabrication that sprang up with little idea of how other similar places work ... um great story but what really was this based on. In the industry it's fairl…

the story seems to be set in a world that uses gas to weld steel as part of a production process, making a blue flame. are there any torches that can weld steel and make a blue flame? does anyone use manual gas welding in automotive production‽

Re: “Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007)

#75

Post by Nifty3929 » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 7:23 PM UTC

paul_f wrote: post #70

giorgosts wrote: post #44

Bullshit story the consultant made up to bolster his point (93% efficiency claim from a foreman wtf). Of course finding some help moving parts around for the welders would be the first thing the foreman would think of, because thats what foremans do all the time in factories. Maybe the welders chose to work this way (i.e. inefficiently) because continuous welding produces fatigue which risks H&S and lowers the qualit…

The story might not be a accurate, but the concept is certainly valid. I see this sort of thing all the time. This terrific story helps people to understand the core point, that busy does not equal productive.

Yes, exactly. THE STORY IS NOT ABOUT WELDING! It is about having misconceptions about efficiency and productivity, and that people being busy does not mean they can't be more productive.

Re: “Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007)

#76

Post by Nifty3929 » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 7:27 PM UTC

Regarding so many other comments from people who know a lot about welding and/or factories who think the story is made up. Probably you're right, but THE STORY IS NOT ABOUT WELDING!

It is about having misconceptions about efficiency and productivity, and that people being busy does not mean they can't be more productive.

Re: “Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007)

#77

Post by Nifty3929 » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 7:35 PM UTC

omeysalvi wrote: post #73

Even if the story is true, taking this attitude to the extremes is what leads companies like Amazon to time warehouse workers down to the last second and set increasingly aggressive targets every year. It is easy to deal with people when they are just a bunch of numbers in a excel sheet. No wonder they are going to run out of workers to hire in the US by 2024, as their own memo said.

No need to ask people to work more or harder - just show/allow them to work more efficiently and they can generate more value with less/same overall effort.

Better to have a more relaxed and achievable target of 100 units with a more efficient way of working than to have a more difficult target of 50 with a less efficient one. Right?

Re: “Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007)

#78

Post by anenefan » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:53 PM UTC

yuubi wrote: post #74

anenefan wrote: post #41

I know most people are gushing with positives ... but to me this reads like the epitome of a clueless consultant who got lucky because the 30 plus years manager missed the basics ... unless the era of the tale was early 60s or something or some middle of nowhere fabrication that sprang up with little idea of how other similar places work ... um great story but what really was this based on. In the industry it's fairl…

the story seems to be set in a world that uses gas to weld steel as part of a production process, making a blue flame. are there any torches that can weld steel and make a blue flame? does anyone use manual gas welding in automotive production‽

The blue light is from a arc welding process be it stick rods or gas shielded continuous wire. A flame would not have the on and off as described as well as being hard to detect at any distance. The most common steel welding flame process, oxy acetylene flame has an inner blue hue but the welding pool is probably brighter, so I doubt even at 10 feet a person could notice any particular colour hue, for anything hand held.

Re: “Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007)

#79

Post by anenefan » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 10:07 PM UTC

Nifty3929 wrote: post #75

paul_f wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story might not be a accurate, but the concept is certainly valid. I see this sort of thing all the time. This terrific story helps people to understand the core point, that busy does not equal productive.

Yes, exactly. THE STORY IS NOT ABOUT WELDING! It is about having misconceptions about efficiency and productivity, and that people being busy does not mean they can't be more productive.

Though it tries, it's a bad story about determining work flow efficiencies and misses the mark. Surely if the consultant had been immersed in any industry for long, they could have recounted where they zeroed in on one particular metric to determine efficiency. Mind it's a very good story of a consultant picking one metric and the result ... as already stated, just happened to be extremely lucky I can probably recount a tale or two where the agent (new management or new ideas from up top) for change was totally clueless and things went downhill ... there is period where profits don't take a hit and by the time the fall out is happening, it's hard to wind back the clock ... customers / clients are on the decline.

Re: “Blue Light” creating capacity for nothing (2007)

#80

Post by vivegi » Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 2:47 AM UTC

hn_go_brrrrr wrote: post #28

vivegi wrote: post #3

Great article. It is almost always the case that we live under "assumed constraints". Most of the time when we question the underlying assumptions we are able to break the constraint or relax it to obtain a better solution. The Goal, by Eliyahu M. Goldratt is highly recommended for understanding Theory of Constraints told from the view of a fictional plant manager.

I read that, having received a similar recommendation, but after I finished it I had no idea how to translate that into my own job (I do not manage a factory).

It doesn't have to be a factory producing physical goods. Anytime we have a multi-stage process with different team members responsible for various stages with interdependencies, you will find constraints abound.

ToC tells you that while there will be multiple constraints, your biggest bang for the buck comes from identifying the limiting constraint first and finding workarounds to break / relax that. Focusing on the non-limiting constraint would not give you the best benefit.

This is such a general concept that we can apply it to so many processes whether it is sales, customer service, bug triaging/resolution, logistics etc., Any place we observe a queue (whether visible or hidden), I can guarantee that there is a lurking constraint somewhere.