Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid • Hacker News Board

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#71

Post by specialist » Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 2:11 PM UTC

acabal wrote: post #19

I produced a free ebook edition of Mutual Aid for Standard Ebooks last year: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/peter-kropotkin/mutual-aid It's very readable and quite interesting. It aimed to have a veneer of science, when the science of animals and nature was still fairly undeveloped; and it succeeded in a sense, because its observations are still held in regard, but I think it succeeded much better as a work of phi…

> men can't really cooperate in any grand sense

Dawn of Everything shares the latest anthropology and archeology about prior societies. Spoiler: Science indicates a whole lot more cooperation than was previously assumed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawn_of_Everything

I'm quite bullish on the future of cooperatives. Perhaps like the worker directed social enterprises advocated by Richard Wolfe.

One missing "technology" is better, more durable governance. Cooperatives have been vulnerable to corporate capture (or transmutation). Like the farmer's cooperatives of yore. And they need better protection against coups, usurpers.

But surely that's solvable. We have 1,000s of successful examples to learn from.

Imagine a world where participating in a home owner association, local government council, or a volunteer org's executive board wasn't considered cruel and unusual punishment.

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#72

Post by richiebful1 » Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 2:12 PM UTC

082349872349872 wrote: post #18

Interesting. While reading this, I wondered idly if solidarity might be more acceptable phrasing than mutual aid in the US?

Mutual aid is a fairly common term in my region:

https://www.lpm.org/news/2022-11-27/eastern-ky-mutual-aid-gr...

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#73

Post by andrepd » Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

acabal wrote: post #19

I produced a free ebook edition of Mutual Aid for Standard Ebooks last year: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/peter-kropotkin/mutual-aid It's very readable and quite interesting. It aimed to have a veneer of science, when the science of animals and nature was still fairly undeveloped; and it succeeded in a sense, because its observations are still held in regard, but I think it succeeded much better as a work of phi…

> Of course, mankind has demonstrated through thousands of years of history that tribes of men can't really cooperate in any grand sense

I'm assuming this is satire, but it's hard to tell via text.

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#74

Post by serverholic » Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

082349872349872 wrote: post #44

culi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what ways has mankind demonstrated that "tribes of men" can't cooperate? Humans have been able to live in large decentralized polities for millennia and modern archeology strongly backs this up. Göbekli Tepe (~11kya), the still-standing mammoth houses of North Eastern Europe (~15kya), or perhaps best exemplified by "the new archaic" or "monuments without kings"[^0] which is a term used by archeologists to describe…

Mutual Aid Among Animals mentions the existence of Defectors. I would argue both that the existence of the internet in particular and civilisation in general is a sign that great numbers of people can cooperate effectively, and that the woeful Covid response is a sign that small numbers of people defecting can be ruinous. The best laid plans of mice and men, therefore, would seem to be those that (a) allow Cooperator…

I think the woeful Covid response shows how powerful culture is in shaping human behavior.

This is simultaneously terrifying and a source of optimism.

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#75

Post by SyzygistSix » Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 2:25 PM UTC

PartiallyTyped wrote: post #53

rowanajmarshall wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mankind has demonstrated through thousands of years of history that tribes of men can't really cooperate in any grand sense I'd argue the fact that humans can live in reasonably stable polities of more than a billion people proves, and in an economic space of practically the entire planet (globalisation!) proves we absolutely can cooperate at grand, epic scales.Whether or not that means Kropotkin is right is anothe…

We are not cooperating at grand scales, not in what matters to the average person, but we certainly cooperate on helping the rich get richer.

Are you ignoring the billion and a half people that have been lifted out of poverty since the 50s or 60s? We can definitely cooperate to benefit the masses of humankind and we do.

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#76

Post by SyzygistSix » Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 2:31 PM UTC

romwell wrote: post #5

Incidentally, I've just been unpacking moving boxes, and put the beautifully illuminated [1] print of Mutual Aid on my "to-read" bookshelf. I wonder how often this particular instance of Baader-Meinhof phenomenon happens on HN, i.e. what's the intersection of regulars here and people familiar with names like Kropotkin, Makhno, etc. [1] PM press edition: https://www.pmpress.org/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1272

It's not difficult to find Kropotkin's name popping up in many places online.

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#77

Post by 082349872349872 » Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 2:31 PM UTC

pimbrah wrote: post #66

082349872349872 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any good reading for Jura's anarchist dream? (le français, ça joue)

A movie "Unrueh" (Unrest) has just been released in the theaters about Kropotkin's Swiss period. Haven't seen it yet but it is on my list

Tiptop (one wonders if an anarchist Jura would or would not have reacted in a more timely fashion to the invention of the quartz watch?)

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#78

Post by iakov » Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 2:35 PM UTC

082349872349872 wrote: post #63

iakov wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And annoying the language speakers. Pёtr is painful to read. Peter, Pyotr, Peter, Пётр, pick any, but don't mix and match please!

What about the other way? Would it be legit to transliterate the english nickname Pete as Пить? Много городов у вас в России))

That is how it is done when translating literature, right? Pete becomes Пит - just like you are pronouncing Pete.

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#79

Post by serverholic » Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

Anarchism is an interesting topic, and learning about it has lead me down some interesting paths of learning and thought.

At its core, it’s the position of being against hierarchies of power where humans dominate those with less power. In simple terms, it’s being against humans dominating each other.

The big question is can we have a functioning society with less human domination and how far can we reduce it? That’s a deep question that involves everything from economics to the study of human nature.

In terms of human nature, I think people are far too quick to ascribe certain behaviors to human nature.

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#80

Post by robertlagrant » Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

082349872349872 wrote: post #70

robertlagrant wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Hence my final phrase :)

OK, so what model of overall cooperation would avoid Wikipedia drama? (having seen humanity's response to Covid, I'm not willing to admit "the spirit of full cooperation will bloom as defecting behaviour withers away" as axiomatic. But I am curious as to what you have in mind?)

I don't have an alternative for Wikipedia. I'm saying we shouldn't lean into any (always seductive) way of thinking that demonises people who disagrees with our one true way of doing things. People should be herded cats; neither wild cats nor herded sheep.