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Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

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Re: Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

#71

Post by encryptluks2 »

alexeldeib wrote: post #21
procrastitron wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“All of the core decisions here are solid (pub key identities…” I agree, except for the bit about public keys as identities. I think public key identities are a step in the right direction, but there’s still a gap between that and what the ultimate solution is going to wind up being. We need to have some layer of indirection between user identities and public keys so that users can do things like rotate keys, have mu…

I was reading about algorand rekeying today, as well as DIDs and atproto/bluesky. Both seem to use a “signed rotation” approach. Algorand keeps your public key stable while adding metadata that your spend key has changed and links the two. Atproto similarly uses the recovery key to sign a rotation op which can regenerate your signing key, additionally readjusting the tree to preattack state (by setting prev of the ro…

Until Algorand can remove the CGO requirements and libc JS dependencies then I hope it won't ever be considered for something like this. Let's not also forget about their terrible management.

Re: Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

#72

Post by astrange »

anon291 wrote: post #53
egypturnash wrote: post #10

So how does nostr propose to solve the problem where there is, in fact, quite a lot of content that you want to filter out, whether because it makes for a better experience for the people using this protocol to talk to each other, or because there are some pretty solid laws about things that various governments require people to filter out? https://abovethelaw.com/2022/11/hey-elon-let-me-help-you-spe... is a pretty d…

Quoted post unavailable.

Letting other countries run intelligence ops on you isn’t actually beneficial, even if you enjoy it at the time.

(No, the president’s son didn’t actually leave a laptop at the repair shop of a blind man in a different state and then not come back for it. And while some emails were verified through DKIM, the one you specifically mentioned wasn’t.)

Re: Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

#73

Post by couchand »

noizejoy wrote: post #43
chromatin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of ideas that have been tossed around for relay abuse prevention: - Proof of work: computing some hash, which is not enough to be onerous but enough to reduce spam - micropayment over Bitcoin lightning network

Proof of work via computing should be a non-starter for anyone caring for limiting environmental damage.

Or wanting to operate in New York State as of this week!

Re: Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

#74

Post by alexeldeib »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #71
alexeldeib wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was reading about algorand rekeying today, as well as DIDs and atproto/bluesky. Both seem to use a “signed rotation” approach. Algorand keeps your public key stable while adding metadata that your spend key has changed and links the two. Atproto similarly uses the recovery key to sign a rotation op which can regenerate your signing key, additionally readjusting the tree to preattack state (by setting prev of the ro…

Until Algorand can remove the CGO requirements and libc JS dependencies then I hope it won't ever be considered for something like this. Let's not also forget about their terrible management.

I wasn’t suggesting either of the technologies wholesale. The “signed rotation” commonality seemed interesting, with subtle differences. I’m curious to see where DIDs go, I’ve seen those crop up a few places.

UCAN also seems interesting, JWT with extra steps and attenuation. But orthogonal to this issue for the most part.

Re: Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

#75

Post by anon291 »

pstuart wrote: post #63
anon291 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Wow, nice "people are saying" play. Every single time the laptop story comes up it's in a butthurt way that is hilariously selective in its indignation. Misinformation/disinformation is a thing and is not considered healthy for discourse. It also seems to be willingly embraced when it serves one's biases. Pity.

The laptop story would not have survived for two plus years were it not for the fact that Twitter and facebook both took unprecedented steps to censor it. Like literally... if you want something relegated to ignominy, don't do what facebook and twitter did.

Plus, at the time of the censorship, facebook and twitter claimed that the misinformation was that the laptop did not belong to Mr Biden. At this point, every news outlet of repute has admitted the laptop belongs to Hunter.

Re: Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

#76

Post by pessimizer »

pstuart wrote: post #63
anon291 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Wow, nice "people are saying" play. Every single time the laptop story comes up it's in a butthurt way that is hilariously selective in its indignation. Misinformation/disinformation is a thing and is not considered healthy for discourse. It also seems to be willingly embraced when it serves one's biases. Pity.

> Misinformation/disinformation is a thing and is not considered healthy for discourse.

The stupid laptop being a Russian forgery was misinformation/disinformation that affected an election. The NYT and WaPo have faced up to it by now, but middle-aged extreme partisans will post "cope" like they're millennials from 2015.

Or "butthurt."

Re: Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

#77

Post by assetlabel »

egypturnash wrote: post #10

So how does nostr propose to solve the problem where there is, in fact, quite a lot of content that you want to filter out, whether because it makes for a better experience for the people using this protocol to talk to each other, or because there are some pretty solid laws about things that various governments require people to filter out? https://abovethelaw.com/2022/11/hey-elon-let-me-help-you-spe... is a pretty d…

Just mute them. Or just follow who you follow with no suggestions of other people. Or relays can have a censorship policy based on the law or community standards or anything else they want... and the people will use whatever relays work for them (typically multiple relays to follow multiple crowds). Some people want censorship, some don't, the protocol is totally agnostic on this point.

Re: Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

#78

Post by assetlabel »

deaddodo wrote: post #36
fiatjaf wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike what OP says Nostr relays are not dumb, they can have their own policies and to me they look like a better version of Mastodon servers. They can have identities, "themes" and policies as they wish. On Nostr it's totally fine for one relay to only allow certain kinds of content and block everything else. Users can just connect to multiple relays if they want to read/write about different things.

What bugs me about it is their naivety to solved technical problems. For instance, they answer the question of “why this hasn’t been done?” with: > I don't know, but I imagine it has to do with the fact that people making social networks are either companies wanting to make money or P2P activists who want to make a thing completely without servers. Except it has been done. In fact, that’s literally what KaZaA was wit…

They may be young and unaware of "solved technical problems," but they are full of energy, and every generation has to relearn the same things.

But as for peer latency issues or easy censorship by killing nodes, I don't see it. Nostr has fan-out, but not as much as RSS does and I don't expect superrelays.

I also don't follow you on the issue of anonymity or privacy. The guy who started it fiatjaf is anonymous. We don't know who he is. And you can be too. Just make up a key, create and sign an event, and push it into whatever relay takes your fancy... through Tor if that's your thing.

Re: Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

#79

Post by assetlabel »

nobody9999 wrote: post #52
Cameri wrote: post #24

I don't agree Nostr is P2P since clients must connect to relays and there's no provision at the time for client to client connectivity. I found out about Nostr and due to the simplicity of the protocol I was able to start building right away. I implemented a relay using Typescript: https://github.com/Cameri/nostr-ts-relay I also wrote this dead simple SMTP to Nostr gateway: https://github.com/Cameri/smtp-nostr-gatewa…

How does your client (or any nostr client) deal with discoverability? I'm not piling on nostr here, that's an issue with ActivityPub as well as most decentralized platforms/protocols?

You can look someone up like bob@example.com and if he publishes his nostr information in a well-known file, you'll know where to follow him and what his public key is: https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/master/35.md

Of course this doesn't work for people wishing to remain anonymous.

Re: Nostr is a stupid simple P2P protocol that works, built by builders

#80

Post by StillBored »

A huge advantage to many large projects is separations of concerns, particularly in the case of protocol (or API/etc) vs policy.

From the sounds of it, you have the protocol but not the policy. Which is by itself huge that they are separate, but now the clients (?) needs flexible policy, no? Otherwise its just going to turn into a billion people all talking in the same room, or your going to have a ton of tiny rooms with no activity. The discoverability of interesting rooms will be difficult. Its sorta the IRC problem in a nutshell (or discord/etc). Balancing the noise, vs the quiet is the difficult part (AFAIK).

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