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Man of the Hole

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Re: Man of the Hole

#71

Post by shadowgovt »

prox wrote: post #45
shadowgovt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIUC, the mining operation was extremely illegal (independent of the genocide, which is obviously also illegal). It happened on Brazil's watch so it's Brazil's responsibility, but I'm ill-convinced convinced that in its absence this wouldn't continue to happen (in its absence, there's no FINRA, no organization protecting these tribes... And there are still people willing to kill for mining profit).

An organization made to help is https://amazonfrontlines.org , they do a lot work in this regard.

In the absence of a Brazil, that work would have to include force projection. Do they have any experience hiring private military groups to protect the interests of the indigenous people they safeguard?

It's not impossible, but "holding Brazil accountable" is a strategy far likelier to succeed, I suspect.

Re: Man of the Hole

#72

Post by lazide »

luckylion wrote: post #67
zach_garwood wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you figure? Every day they make the choice to live like they do, just like you make the choice to live in your town doing whatever it is you do. If you wanted to live a different lifestyle, you could pick a direction, go there, and live like the people there. They choose not to. That sounds like liberty to me.

What? Stone age people made "a choice" to live in the stone age? Could they have just chosen to live in the space age instead? How does that work?

I’m not sure how you figure.

In the scenario you’re describing (a walled off preserve), said folks could decide to join ‘the space age’ by walking to the next valley if they wanted to.

And that is someone Stone Age folks did regularly, walk to other valleys.

In the real Stone Age, that means they see another group of Stone Age folks. In the space age scenario, that means they get exposure to some space age stuff.

So they’d be making the choice to stay, by staying, if they don’t do that.

No one is building a fence to keep them in, just like no one was working to keep ‘the man of the hole’ in. If someone does make a fenced off area around them that is impossible to escape, then sure that could be a problem. It’s a prison then.

But that’s not what anyone is proposing I can see.

They were just working to keep others from going in and screwing with him.

He knew there were others out there, he just didn’t want to be bothered - and they were trying to help him do that.

Re: Man of the Hole

#73

Post by lazide »

scotty79 wrote: post #51
andrewflnr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The liberty is in not being forcibly relocated. Try to focus. Note how far the question has already drifted from human zoos, to just whether it's good to contact people or not. This is not an accident. It's because the human zoo comparison was never defensible; it was trivial to force you to move the goalposts.

So if you put cages over the animals in the jungle that's not a zoo because they never got relocated?

Who is putting cages over anyone? And where did you get that idea?

Preserves don’t do that either.

Re: Man of the Hole

#74

Post by scotty79 »

lazide wrote: post #73
scotty79 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you put cages over the animals in the jungle that's not a zoo because they never got relocated?

Who is putting cages over anyone? And where did you get that idea? Preserves don’t do that either.

Nobody. I'm just trying to understand what makes a zoo, a zoo.

My intuition is more about not forcibly relocating but putting boundaries so that movement is restricted and safe observations can be performed for prolonged time.

Re: Man of the Hole

#75

Post by luckylion »

lazide wrote: post #72
luckylion wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Stone age people made "a choice" to live in the stone age? Could they have just chosen to live in the space age instead? How does that work?

I’m not sure how you figure. In the scenario you’re describing (a walled off preserve), said folks could decide to join ‘the space age’ by walking to the next valley if they wanted to. And that is someone Stone Age folks did regularly, walk to other valleys. In the real Stone Age, that means they see another group of Stone Age folks. In the space age scenario, that means they get exposure to some space age stuff. So…

> In the space age scenario, that means they get exposure to some space age stuff.

But they don't, unless they actually get exposed to it. "They've heard a machine and it was loud and terrible and knocked over a tree" doesn't mean they're making an informed decision, because e.g. they don't know surgery or antibiotics.

> They were just working to keep others from going in and screwing with him.

And that's fine, but he's not making an informed decision to stay in the the forest because he prefers that way of life. He's doing what he knows and doesn't do what he doesn't know. That's not a choice. Before Fosbury developed the Fosbury Flop, other athletes weren't choosing to not jump that way.

Re: Man of the Hole

#76

Post by carapace »

Once, in a small town in Colorado I passed two people, a man and a woman, and there was something very strange about them. I mentioned it to a friend of mine and he told me about them: they were refugees from the far south, from a indigenous people that no one knew. No one spoke their language and they knew no other. Their home and people had been destroyed and scattered.

After that, I realized what was so strange about them. They were ghosts, but they still had their bodies.

Re: Man of the Hole

#77

Post by lazide »

scotty79 wrote: post #74
lazide wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is putting cages over anyone? And where did you get that idea? Preserves don’t do that either.

Nobody. I'm just trying to understand what makes a zoo, a zoo. My intuition is more about not forcibly relocating but putting boundaries so that movement is restricted and safe observations can be performed for prolonged time.

Why is that important to you?

Re: Man of the Hole

#78

Post by lazide »

luckylion wrote: post #75
lazide wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure how you figure. In the scenario you’re describing (a walled off preserve), said folks could decide to join ‘the space age’ by walking to the next valley if they wanted to. And that is someone Stone Age folks did regularly, walk to other valleys. In the real Stone Age, that means they see another group of Stone Age folks. In the space age scenario, that means they get exposure to some space age stuff. So…

> In the space age scenario, that means they get exposure to some space age stuff. But they don't, unless they actually get exposed to it. "They've heard a machine and it was loud and terrible and knocked over a tree" doesn't mean they're making an informed decision, because e.g. they don't know surgery or antibiotics. > They were just working to keep others from going in and screwing with him. And that's fine, but h…

Why is this distinction important to you exactly?

By the criteria you seem to be using, I’m not sure it’s possible for anyone to ever make an informed consent about 99% of anything, since practically speaking there are near infinite possible options available for almost every action, almost all of them impractical or pointless to even discuss, and most of them more damaging than they are worth to even bring up.

For example, it doesn’t seem like a reasonable requirement that someone spends a bunch of time doing cocaine so they understand it, in order to not want to do cocaine.

If the tribe wanted to know more about the big scary machines, they are free to try to contact the folks and learn more.

If they want to stay away from the giant shitshow that is modern society, that’s fine too. I can’t necessarily blame them either!

They don’t need to spend a lifetime learning all the myriad reasons why just to not be exposed to all the myriad reasons why.

Re: Man of the Hole

#79

Post by lazide »

mlyle wrote: post #32
MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the liberty though? By definition, a native from an uncontacted tribe can't make an informed choice.

He refused contact with outsiders. Would you have preferred that he had been forcibly contacted and educated, to make an "informed" choice, in the name of his liberty and/or autonomy?

Based on other replies in the thread, it seems clear that some folks do indeed believe that.
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