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Story: “It would be career limiting..."

doomedprojects.com

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Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#71
post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

The skill of reading a room in this particular case - is to realize the kind of place this is and go elsewhere before going through all that effort for it be disregarded by bruised egos, not do even more unnecessary work to bail out incompetent managers.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#72
post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

Yeah, it seems like scope needed to be reduced in order to deliver an MVP on time.

It seems like Agile would have been a great fit. Too many requirements, no real information - it's exactly the situation where throwing out prototypes and getting feedback can lead to a solution.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#73
post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

Doesn't sound like that was the job of this little committee. As written, it was to review and particularly identify extra work. Presenting solutions to this kind of problem isn't explicitly and often implicitly the function of the developer(s), especially in a room full of managers. Whose job it is literally to identify solutions to this exact kind of problem.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it seems like scope needed to be reduced in order to deliver an MVP on time.

I wonder if we have conditioned clients to expect everything now. Are we harming our own customers by allowing them to make demands that in turn only harm themselves in the long run? Do we have too much of a revolving door for an organization to see this trend?

Yes. If you need more time ask for it and explain why it’s necessary and why the delay couldn’t have been anticipated. It’s better to be late than be late and also delivery a shoddy product.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#75
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a manager, and you make this type of remark, do not get it twisted. You have made a threat, and you have created an adversarial situation that limits your report's ability to trust you. You've telegraphed to them that you're willing to throw them under the bus, and they will remember. If it doesn't feel like you're making a threat - it may feel to you like you're genuinely giving advice - then you have not…

Quoted post unavailable.

That's just a fractal version of this same problem.

Most of us are here to get work done and earn a living, and not to role play palace intrigue.

But certainly it's my experience that this toxicity comes from the top down and I have sympathy with managers who are putting their reports under unreasonable pressure because they are themselves under unreasonable pressure.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#77
post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

> you don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem

Honestly that's exactly what I'd expect out of a meeting like that, and with good leadership it'd be a collaborative exercise on how to solve the problem. There's not going to be a solution that has zero impact on anyone else, and that individual team doesn't have the authority to make the call on what impact the business can sustain. They came, presented their problem, and their ideal recommendation (a 12 month delay). There's plenty of options on how to deal with that: ask sales how much of a delay is actually tolerable, see if low-priority asks could be dropped to free up some additional time, etc etc.

It's leadership's job to mediate problems between "peer" groups, like engineering and sales.

My first role out of college was on a four person product team split across three projects on two OSes. We were overloaded and couldn't maintain the desired velocity that Management was asking for. So we scheduled a meeting with the VP of product development and the CEO (the joys of a midsize company), sat down, and shared the amount of effort in our backlog, the goals we'd committed to as a company for these projects, and the cost that context-switching. The CEO considered us for about 20 seconds, then said "Okay, which project should we drop?". She had the trust in her teams and her management to take them at their word about their inability to achieve the goals, understand it's because the goals were beyond the reasonable capability of the team and not because the team was underperforming, and understand the landscape of the choices available:

(1) continue underperforming on our existing goals and possibly upset customers due to not meeting stated expectations

(2) walk back our commitments, possibly upsetting customers

(3) cut the legacy product and focus on achieving and even exceeding our commitments for the modern product

(4) do nothing and shred team morale

More often than not "office politics" is really just shorthand for "low trust, low transparency environment". Yes, there's some amount of collaborative interpersonal skills necessary to be a good engineer, but if you don't trust me to do my job and tell you when our objectives are at risk then why did you hire me?

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#78
post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

> concoct a plan to stage the product development and release such that it gets done and you don't cost a giant contract

Yes, always showing up with a solution to problems that you've surfaced is a good idea and good for your career,

... BUT:

isn't coming up with a solution to this problem literally the job of the management team that they presented to? If management hears "the thing you think will happen will absolutely not happen" and then says "I wasn't handed an actionable plan by my subordinates so we'll just pretend I never heard all this", then they kind of suck. How well is an IC or lower level manager going to know what tradeoffs could be made without jeopardizing the contract or what kind of staging would be acceptable to the client?

If your boss is ok with riding a project off a cliff when you've warned them then it's not your fault. That's when you either hang out, don't stress, and wait for it to explode, or you go find a new job.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#79

I could never relate to people who care about their career, "success", getting ahead, or climbing the corporate ladder. For me virtually everything else in life has been more important, and careers/jobs were just a necessary evil because it's almost impossible to survive without money.

No post body was provided.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#80
post #40

> I spent about 18 months working on a doomed project. For a lot of that time, I thought I was the only one who realized it was doomed. I had a similar feeling about a project once. I thought "Boy is this stupid. No one in their right mind is going to pay for this. Why are we building this." Let me manager know my feelings. Stayed and built it. Thing is a huge success. One of our best selling products. Boy do I still…

This is a great comment. It takes a lot of humility to admit you were wrong, and it sounds like it was a great learning experience.
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