Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 205 posts

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#71

Post by wpietri »

tptacek wrote: post #59

tl;dr: Some women say it's hard for women to start startups. But none of them have started startups like I have. Except for Facebook's C.O.O. But who wants her life? Wouldn't most women want to be GOOD moms? VCs say they want to encourage women to start startups. But since they're not themselves women who have started startups, they can't know what I know, which is that women have ovaries and want to work part time.…

Thanks for the summary. I've stopped clicking on TechCrunch linkbait precisely because I don't want to reward this sort of idiocy.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#73

Post by hack_edu »

prasinous wrote: post #61

I am a woman and I have worked at four different startups in finance. I have to say, women weren't treated differently to men insofar as civility seems orthogonal to success in finance. But after ten years of ninety hour weeks, "special" weekend projects, perpetual release death marches, and striving to meet unrealistic deadlines, you know... I am really thinking of downshifting. Not for children, not for society's e…

The longing to take it slower and treat yourself right, and not grinding yourself into the ground for the sake of sexy business and easy cash, is perfectly reasonable. The notion of life balance is quite well represented around here, contrary to what the minority that dominate the echo chamber would like you to think.

Time enjoyed is time well-spent.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#74

Post by hack_edu »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #70

There are a lot of hidden prejudices both in this article and in the entire discussion around women in technology and the startup world. I have a startup. I love startups. So should everybody else love startups too? Not at all. A more direct question: roughly 50% of people are females. Should 50% of startup founders be female? I don't think so, but I find it difficult to continue the conversation past this conclusion…

This is the most reasonable and fair analysis that I've seen of this issue on HN. What have we learned, after how many threads with 100+ comments have there been on this subject now? Everyone just seems to chime in with their one-bit comment, based on some generalization based on anecdote. Discussion would be a lot more direct and on-point if each thread about the intersection of startups and gender politics had this comment near the top.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#75

Post by wpietri »

kstenerud wrote: post #52
gyardley wrote: post #5

In a roundabout way, the author points out that because of differences in preferences between groups, equal access to opportunities don't lead to equal outcomes. However, the 'equal opportunities don't lead to equal outcomes' argument is often used as an excuse to ignore inequality - if we all pretend we've all got perfectly equal access to opportunities, we can attribute any difference in outcomes between groups to…

Thus begins yet another unendable initiative. Differences exist, therefore we say there could be inequality. Since there could be inequality, better to consciously bias against the alleged inequality, just in case the inequality actually exists. And since it's impossible to prove its nonexistence, better to simply state that it exists. After all, there HAS to exist some bias somewhere, no matter how significant. It's…

Come now. We know there's inequality, and we know there's bias. The question is always "is this particular outcome due to bias or some intrinsic difference?"

When we honestly can't tell and the outcome is important, I think it's reasonable to proceed as if the problem is bias. First, because to just assume it's natural differences and be wrong means you're screwing up people's lives and supporting an unfair system. And second, because historically we have fallen back on natural differences in ways we now realize are total bullshit.

See, for example, the Confederate Vice President's "Cornerstone Speech": "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition."

If you're going to call something cowardly, I'd favor people who argue for continuing the (favorable to them) status quo on the grounds that it's intrinsic to the universe. There's not much bravery in justifying a system that's working well for you.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#76

Post by gruseom »

127 wrote: post #42
JoachimSchipper wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Women's] natural imperative is to raise children and nurture them This is the 21st century. Are we really still talking about "natural imperatives"? If nothing else, note that women are having fewer and fewer children, later and later - clearly, they are feeling this "natural imperative" less and less. Traditional gender roles are unfair to women wanting to have a career, unfair to men who want to stay home with t…

There are also women who have been hurt by the feminist way of life. They just want to be submissive, raise a family and let their man take care of everything difficult and challenging. But other women are shaming them into having an active career and delaying the starting of family. I don't support any dogmatic approach into shaming people doing anything. People should have accurate information without distortion an…

They just want to be submissive, raise a family and let their man take care of everything difficult and challenging.

Whoa there. I can't think of any position in this debate that can be strengthened by such a contemptuous statement.

Not to mention oxymoronic. "Raising a family" isn't "difficult and challenging"? Egad.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#77

Post by wpietri »

AznHisoka wrote: post #2

I love Penelope Trunk and her political incorrectness. Her advice may always be controversial, but she's never afraid to speak her mind. And she's right too about women. Their natural imperative is to raise children and nurture them - not to do startups. Most also want the social companionship from friends/family as they raise children (which is missing today as most people don't live near extended family), but they…

Their natural imperative is to raise children and nurture them - not to do startups.

Hello, naturalistic fallacy! How surprising that you came to visit when a bunch of dudes are talking about what they think women should do!

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#78

Post by rmc »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #46
rmc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their natural imperative is to raise children and nurture them - not to do startups. [citation needed] There is no evidence that women naturally want to only raise children. And the implication that a woman who doesn't want spend all their life at home is a 'unnatural' woman, and there is something wrong with her, is a terribly, false, harmful meme to spread. I find this comment offensive, since it spreads a meme tha…

This is why we can't discuss sensitive subjects like this. People always take an innocent comment, which seems to be borne out by observational evidence at the very least, and then twist it to mean something entirely different. >There is no evidence that women naturally want to only raise children. Do you see what you did there? You (perhaps unconsciously) inserted "only" in the parent's statement, completely changin…

I would not call what you said an "innocent comment". It's spreading a meme and idea that has frequently been used to keep half the population as second class citizens.

You have part of a point about my "only" comment. However there is no evidence that women (and not men) want to naturally raise children. There is no evidence that there is anything "unnatural" about a woman (or man) who doesn't want children.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#79

Post by sunahsuh »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #70

There are a lot of hidden prejudices both in this article and in the entire discussion around women in technology and the startup world. I have a startup. I love startups. So should everybody else love startups too? Not at all. A more direct question: roughly 50% of people are females. Should 50% of startup founders be female? I don't think so, but I find it difficult to continue the conversation past this conclusion…

However, the fact that the patterns of behavior aren't random does clue you in that there are systemic factors involved, which can be analyzed and tested. Yes, every person makes an individual decision based on countless variables but that doesn't mean you can't make reliable conclusions based on the aggregate.

This is like the reverse of the probabalistic fallacy that the 100th coin flip will be affected by the fact that the previous 99 flips landed on heads. If you know for sure that your coin isn't biased the probabilities on the 100th flip is 50/50 but gosh, at that point wouldn't you question your assumptions and take a closer look at the coin?

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#80

Post by mjg59 »

Her first link ("women earn more than men in their 20s") goes to an article that ascribes the difference to a larger number of women at that age having degrees - ie, all else being equal, women earn less than men for the same job. Her second link ("women choose to downshift") links to an opinion piece that provides no citations for any of its claims. Her third link ("Women are choosing children over startups") links back to her own blog and again provides no substantive citations.

If someone's going to make blanket assertions like this then they ought to be able to back them up. She hasn't.

Post reply on HN