Counterpoint: EV's might save the grid https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2022/09/12/evs-wo...
Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid
71–80 of 110 posts
Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid
#72"time of use" tariffs will be important to keep things balanced. People who want to minimize their power bill should have the option to pick the "time of use" pricing and shift some of their consumption off-peak. Others can choose to pay more for the convenience of not having to worry about all that stuff. How much more, that can be determined by market forces.
So basically screw over your average mid to low income person that has less flexibility. This is not how we convince people to be sustainable.
Would a person with low income prefer A) having an option to lower the electricity bill or B) pay more because there is no such option, and more expensive power needs to be sourced from peaking power plants?
There are already day-ahead electricity markets with prices that vary throughout the day. You _already_ pay a premium over those variable prices, for the convenience of a fixed rate. All I'm saying is that it would be good if consumers had the _option_ of eliminating some of that premium, in exchange for demand shifting.
Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
So basically screw over your average mid to low income person that has less flexibility. This is not how we convince people to be sustainable.
What are you talking about? "Low to mid income" people also sleep at some time during the night or day.
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Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
So basically screw over your average mid to low income person that has less flexibility. This is not how we convince people to be sustainable.
Would a person with low income prefer A) having an option to lower the electricity bill or B) pay more because there is no such option, and more expensive power needs to be sourced from peaking power plants? There are already day-ahead electricity markets with prices that vary throughout the day. You _already_ pay a premium over those variable prices, for the convenience of a fixed rate. All I'm saying is that it wou…
[deleted]
Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
So basically screw over your average mid to low income person that has less flexibility. This is not how we convince people to be sustainable.
What are you talking about? "Low to mid income" people also sleep at some time during the night or day.
Higher electricity prices at night will hit the poor who will be driving older EVs with degraded batteries. They'll have to charge all night so that they can make your McMuffin at 7am. They will also have to drive from further away because we also can't get a handle on housing prices in this country.
Higher earners live closer to work. In addition to being able to afford the higher nighttime rates, their workplace may also offer charging as a perk. So you see, those with money form their opinions about electricity pricing schemes involving the invisible hand that has already been so kind to them.
Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid
#76"time of use" tariffs will be important to keep things balanced. People who want to minimize their power bill should have the option to pick the "time of use" pricing and shift some of their consumption off-peak. Others can choose to pay more for the convenience of not having to worry about all that stuff. How much more, that can be determined by market forces.
PG&E in California already offers multiple time-of-use pricing options, including one just for EVs.
They still can't keep the lights on during a heat wave because people run their air conditioners and are willing to pay the peak rates to do so. Imagine the same level of demand, but with mass EV adoption on top of it, as well as the state planning to ban gas appliances and shift all the load for cooking and heating onto the grid. That is the future we are headed toward.
Right now, EV ownership is largely restricted to homeowners who can install charging stations. Building more EV charging stations without beefing up the power grid, which will make it more practical for apartment dwellers to own electric cars, will result in even more demand for electricity at all times of the day.
You can tinker with time-of-use rates all you want, but the only real solution is to have a much better power grid.
People talk about EVs putting power back into the grid. Frankly I think that's a pipe dream in the near future. Our power companies are barely competent enough to run the grid without causing forest fires -- they aren't going to be capable of implementing that at the kind of scale that would make a difference anytime soon.
Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid
#77And, the attachment of many EVs to the Grid after enabling their innate V2G (Vehicle to Grid) ability will revolutionize them: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-unlocks-vehicle-to-grid-abil...
I don't know about that. Consider after a natural disaster, like Florida right now, or Texas last year. If every vehicle is low on energy (say, by trying to flee), and they are all trying at once to charge, that may overwhelm the grid. V2G only works assuming mass numbers of people aren't driving all at once, or trying to recharge their vehicles all at once. The fail condition needs to be: What happens if 80% of EV o…
If a civilization has already decided that adequate base-load supply is optional (which we apparently have…) — then at least making that inadequate Grid more resilient by adding more battery-to-grid capacity is an improvement.
I personally this that’s stupid, but old slobs like me have been out-voted by young bucks who evidently don’t mind freezing in the dark.
Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
or coordinate them so that doesn’t happen?
Yeah. Adding complexity to a system is always the best solution.
I'm trying not to be smug, but are you under the assumption that the delivery of physical forms of energy is simple? Distributing, on average, ~1.5B liters of gasoline, with different qualities/chemistries/regions/etc, every day in the US has immense amounts of complexity. Now do that for coal, natural gas, heating oil, etc.
Managing time of day for charging isn't a more complicated problem than any of those.
Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
So basically screw over your average mid to low income person that has less flexibility. This is not how we convince people to be sustainable.
Would a person with low income prefer A) having an option to lower the electricity bill or B) pay more because there is no such option, and more expensive power needs to be sourced from peaking power plants? There are already day-ahead electricity markets with prices that vary throughout the day. You _already_ pay a premium over those variable prices, for the convenience of a fixed rate. All I'm saying is that it wou…
This is all kind of theoretical. Low income people rent from landlords that will not install EV charging infrastructure unless the Federal Government pays for it.
So the correct answer is c) buy a 2005 Honda Civic.
Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most of the forms of travel that are energy and space efficient are typically not time efficient due to inherent tradeoffs. Nothing saves time, space, and energy simultaneously like not commuting in the first place. To butcher an old phrase, "Think globally, live locally". Universal-ish WFH dramatically undercuts the need for both energy and infrastructure (which also takes energy) and will allow us to scale back bot…
You seem to be replying to my original comment which I deleted on realising it didn't make sense in the context of the GP post about taking advantage of charging EVs at the office. FWIW almost nobody in the downtown area (CBD) where I work drives there, it'd be crazy to try. Luckily for me it's a 15 minute bike ride (mostly bike paths) and there's good end-of-trip facilities.
Yes, I was replying to your original comment, which was deleted by the time I posted it. I decided to post on your new comment just to save the thought, which was new to me.