Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 80 posts

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#71

Post by cookrn »

giardini wrote: post #67
AlecSchueler wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I'd love to read more about this if you have any sources. I visited Spain as a vegetarian a few years ago and I found the pork thing so weird. I'd go into a random bar and ask for a beer then they'd give it to me with a plate of sausages on the side without mentioning it or asking first!

Are you required to pay for the plate of sausages if you don't eat any?

In my experience, no. This is the tapas culture typical in some areas of Spain. If they are brought to you without discussion, they are complimentary — you only pay for the drink whether you eat any or not. The only way to know if you’ll receive something typically is to ask and there is no harm or insult in specifying dietary restrictions, though they may just bring bread or olives if you’re on a strict diet. Other regions offer them for a cost and that will be clearly marked on a menu. And even in regions that do provide them gratis, there can even be nuance based on what kind of beverage is ordered.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#72

Post by elnatro »

asabil wrote: post #44
elnatro wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I find it hard to believe that there would be no cultural heritage after ~700 years. What I think you want to say is that the "identity" of modern Spain and Portugal has been shaped and defined by its opposition to the moor/muslim/north-african identity.

No post body was provided.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#73

Post by elnatro »

elnatro wrote: post #41
jvican wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't speak for a whole country. There are people that are proud of this heritage, like me, and many more, especially in the places where Moorish culture had a stronghold (e.g. Andalusia, C. Valenciana, Murcia, etc.)

Quoted post unavailable.

No post body was provided.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#74

Post by krisoft »

spookie wrote: post #45
krisoft wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this was established by the Moors then I would guess other ex-Moor states would have a similar setup. Sure thing! In Madeira they have many ancient aquaducts originally estabilished by the Moors: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levada Ancient water management is a fascinating topic. The qanats in the middle-east, and north africa are particularly interesting. They are underground water conduits and sources dug b…

I really need to comment, even if others said the same thing. There were no moors in Madeira.

hmm. You and others are totally right. I miss-read my own source. Sorry about that!

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#75

Post by spookie »

Ligma123 wrote: post #68
spookie wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do disagree with your last sentence, a lot of Portuguese are proud of their north-african connections. Most families come from "newly-christians" after all (and you gotta blame Spain's Phillips for that one).

I'd really like to know how you reach the conclusion of "most families" when we are talking about two ethno-religious minorities, that allegedly were victims of indiscriminate killings, and mass deportations to the Low Lands, North Africa and to the Americas, but end up leaving a gigantic genetic footprint. At least be coherent.

It's easy to know who comes from a "newly-christian" family in Portugal. Their surnames are those of trees or animals.

I know this cause I'm one, and I'm Portuguese.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#76

Post by Ligma123 »

spookie wrote: post #75
Ligma123 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd really like to know how you reach the conclusion of "most families" when we are talking about two ethno-religious minorities, that allegedly were victims of indiscriminate killings, and mass deportations to the Low Lands, North Africa and to the Americas, but end up leaving a gigantic genetic footprint. At least be coherent.

It's easy to know who comes from a "newly-christian" family in Portugal. Their surnames are those of trees or animals. I know this cause I'm one, and I'm Portuguese.

>Their surnames are those of trees or animals.

Not every Pereira or Coelho is descendent of new Christians. Some sure, but definitely not all.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#77

Post by pvaldes »

contingencies wrote: post #61
ignoramous wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a fit of religious fanaticism Umayyids (the "Syrians" who conquered Spain) and religious fanaticism don't go hand in hand: Most Umayyid rulers were political nihilists at best. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate#Legacy

Furthermore my understanding is they ushered in an amazing era of translation and learning where great state resources were directed to supporting linguistic, cultural and pedagogical achievement and were explicitly pluralistic in terms of state policy on the religions of their subjects. (Source: BBC video series on the Moorish period) Compare Spain today; you can barely get around without being fed jamon . My unders…

> you can barely get around without being fed jamon,

> my understanding is that this is to [...] annoy muslims.

Not. We have a culture also, and pork is a big part of the European culture since the glaciation. Culture that we share with most European and Asian people, from China to Portugal. Europeans ate pork much before Islam. Other cultures have food taboos around pork. We, don't. We toke many useful things of the Muslim culture, but keep the things that worked in European cultures also.

But nobody will force you to eat Jamon in Spain if you explain your diet restrictions in advance.

(And not all things that look like jamon are necessarily made of pork).

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#78

Post by pvaldes »

narag wrote: post #70
gumby wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure about "Moorish". IMHO this is one of the few reasonable uses of this term (which has otherwise acquired a negative connotation). The Muslims who colonized Iberia were referred to as Moors because of their Maghreb origin (cf old Mauritania), which itself is the other, technical, use of the term. And given that it’s the BBC I’d give them a pass for correct usage, even if it’s likely few in the audience will…

The Muslims who colonized Iberia were referred to as Moors because of their Maghreb origin (cf old Mauritania)... That's not the whole truth. Invaders came from far away Arabia, but they were few. From the top of my head, a few thousands. Roman era Hispania was said to reach a million population. Not sure if that number declined during the Goths' kingdom (that were also a minority themselves) so the Arabians had to r…

Talking about food, in some parts of Spain "Chinos" is a very confusing word.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#79

Post by pvaldes »

giardini wrote: post #67
AlecSchueler wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I'd love to read more about this if you have any sources. I visited Spain as a vegetarian a few years ago and I found the pork thing so weird. I'd go into a random bar and ask for a beer then they'd give it to me with a plate of sausages on the side without mentioning it or asking first!

Are you required to pay for the plate of sausages if you don't eat any?

Not. Giving a small amount of free food (called "a tapa") when you buy a drink in a bar is part of the tradition. If is served without asking for it is a free appetizer.

Some Spanish king was concerned about the accidents of drunk people while riding or traveling at chariot between villages, and required that the vine served to travelers include some food to mitigate the alcoholic effect. To obey the new law, innkeepers started to put a slice of bread over the vine jars, like a lid covering it. The Spanish word for lid is "Tapa"; so you have your drink, and "the lid". This only applies to a bar/restaurant context.

You can order one or several tapas of "X" with your drink but in that case is an extra. You'll be served a bigger amount (or a more elaborated mouthful) of the product that you asked for, and is expected that you pay for it. (Same if you order a ration or a half ration of X).

Is not obligatory to eat it. If you are a vegan or have food allergies, just explain it politely and they will remove the offending dish, and probably bring you a more appropriate replacement if they have one.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#80

Post by contingencies »

pvaldes wrote: post #77
contingencies wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Furthermore my understanding is they ushered in an amazing era of translation and learning where great state resources were directed to supporting linguistic, cultural and pedagogical achievement and were explicitly pluralistic in terms of state policy on the religions of their subjects. (Source: BBC video series on the Moorish period) Compare Spain today; you can barely get around without being fed jamon . My unders…

> you can barely get around without being fed jamon, > my understanding is that this is to [...] annoy muslims. Not. We have a culture also, and pork is a big part of the European culture since the glaciation. Culture that we share with most European and Asian people, from China to Portugal. Europeans ate pork much before Islam. Other cultures have food taboos around pork. We, don't. We toke many useful things of the…

Please don't misquote people.
Post reply on HN