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A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

cleveland.com

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Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#71
post #11

> When the app matched his photos of the backyard mushrooms with an edible species, [...] it almost killed him. Now there's an app that'd have to be designed very conscientiously.

Some time ago, I somehow ran into a YouTuber who talks about foraging in the UK talking about how effective these apps are[1]. Each one of them misidentified at least one plant, and two of three gave incorrect (or misleading) results for the deadly plant he tested.

However he made the very interesting point that having an app tell you if something is edible is a completely incorrect starting point for foraging because the main thing you get from using a reference book is that you are forced to notice that there are many plants that may look similar but are different (meaning you are more aware that your task is more about differentiation than identification, since botany is a bit fuzzy around the edges) and might seriously differ in their toxicity. None of these apps have a feature to say "it looks like this edible plant but if the angle you took the photo from was slightly off, it's definitely poisonous because the group of plants that look like this only only one or two edible members and everything else will definitely kill you". Some list confidence percentages but there were examples where the percentages were far too pessimistic or optimistic for a certain match, making them not particularly useful.

My impression is that these apps are developed using the same "move fast and break things" model as most other things these days, which definitely seems like the best model to use when making an app that may or may not lead to people's deaths (not your fault of course, because you waived all liability in your ToS). /s

[1]: https://youtu.be/sjS0PgC9KSc

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a mushroom identification app that doesn't draw attention to toxic lookalikes sounds pretty close to criminally negligent

And this is why we can't have nice things. This opinion is wild to me. You do not trust a consumer app with life and death decisions, especially over something where the potential upside is getting to eat a mushroom you found and the potential downside is death. Making more criminals is not the answer.

A very important fact you need when identifying mushrooms is the consequences of misidentifying them. You don’t have “nice things” when you fail to raise this crucially important point.

Every responsible resource will be full of this kind of caution and neglecting it should be criminal. It isn’t covering your ass or putting an obligatory warning label on everything, a primary point of interest in mushroom identification is toxicity. If you don’t do it you kill people, not like maybe but certainly.

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most plant ID apps have a disclaimer saying that you should never eat anything that you use the app to identify. Seek reminds you every time you open the camera. They're mostly intended as entertainment, but some of them use the data to analyze where species are growing in realtime.

Honestly though there should be limits to the amount that a disclaimer should be able to protect you when your product advises people to do dangerous things you know (or have every responsibility to know) could be lethal. There’s a lot of room between a one in a billion mistake that hurts somebody and a fifty fifty chance a mushroom is poisonous. There are plenty of edible vs deadly mushrooms that only have incredibl…

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Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#74
post #3

It is fall and mushroom picking time! Here is my simple advice: The first mushrooms you should get to know in your area are the deadly ones. When you find a mushroom that looks like an edible one, temper your enthusiasm and be realistic. Mistakes are made when people really want to find an edible one. If it definitely doesn't look like a deadly one and might be the edible you identify, first try a small amount and se…

The best advice I ever heard about mushroom foraging was to find someone who's been doing it a long time, possibly from your local community college, who will take you on walks and teach what to look for and where to look. Repeat any time you move or want to forage in a new place.

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#75
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no wiggle room. You need to be 1000% certain of identification, if you decide to eat a mushroom. That's how I've been doing it for the last decade. I forage a lot of mushrooms, but don't consume anything I'm not sure of. Also, there are "beginner" mushrooms, that don't have any dangerous look-alikes, such as the famous "chicken of the woods" (laetiporus sulphureus). You can't really go wrong with mushroom lik…

My farmers' market has a mushroom guy that brings in things that I've never seen before. Some of them get expensive and a few I've found rather unpleasant. There is absolutely no way that I could find these things myself, so I would suggest a dealer like this if you are in an area large enough to support one. This is the dealer at my market: https://www.wildgrowthgourmetmushrooms.com/

Yeah, I've got foraging with a friend that knew what she was doing, and she really only did it for a fun excuse for a hike and bought her mushrooms at the farmer's market. Granted, I'm in Portland, so mushrooms are exceptional up here, but there's just no way you'll find the quality and quantity the pros do.

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#76
post #38
post #16

Why do people like eating mushrooms from the woods? How much of it is the potential risk? There are plenty of options at the grocery store.

There are mushrooms you effectively can't get at the grocery store. Morels are probably the best example.

My area is probably exceptional, but you can get it from the people at the farmer's market that focus exclusively on mushroom foraging. Even when they're selling the same thing as even premium grocery stores, the gap in quality is very apparent.

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn’t the patient just take a bunch of the milk thistle supplements available at most pharmacies?

"derived from the milk thistle plant" likely involves more than just "eat some powered plant"; Wikipedia seems to indicate it involves more purification steps than the supplement form of things.

There’s a difference between purifying and using something as a basis for synthesis.

The question is, why not the plant itself? (Dried and powdered in a readily available pill)

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#78
post #44

Since no one has done it yet, I'll ask the obvious question about the FDA: how many people die or need a liver transplant each year because the FDA is being unreasonable here? Here's some quotes from the article: Approximately 40% of people who ingest the deadly Amanita mushrooms die or require a liver transplant, according to Dr. Pierre Gholam, the liver specialist at University Hospitals who treated Hickman. ... Th…

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Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#79
post #11

> When the app matched his photos of the backyard mushrooms with an edible species, [...] it almost killed him. Now there's an app that'd have to be designed very conscientiously.

Most plant ID apps have a disclaimer saying that you should never eat anything that you use the app to identify. Seek reminds you every time you open the camera. They're mostly intended as entertainment, but some of them use the data to analyze where species are growing in realtime.

Even if that does waive their legal liability (which I'm not sure it does), there is a moral obligation to try to not endanger the many people that the app developers know are going to disregard that warning. It would be intellectually dishonest for the developers of such apps to pretend that everyone who uses their app actually obeys that warning (there are plenty of YouTube videos instructing people to forage for things using these apps).

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why we can't have nice things. This opinion is wild to me. You do not trust a consumer app with life and death decisions, especially over something where the potential upside is getting to eat a mushroom you found and the potential downside is death. Making more criminals is not the answer.

A very important fact you need when identifying mushrooms is the consequences of misidentifying them. You don’t have “nice things” when you fail to raise this crucially important point. Every responsible resource will be full of this kind of caution and neglecting it should be criminal. It isn’t covering your ass or putting an obligatory warning label on everything, a primary point of interest in mushroom identificat…

Eh, no, you're inventing a narrative. The guy knew the downside actually or he wouldn't have bothered to use the app to identify it. He knew the downsides, he rolled the dice, he lost. His wife knew the downsides, didn't roll the dice, and he thankfully lived maybe because of that.

You also don't know that the app doesn't warn users that it shouldn't be used in life and death situations, but I'll maintain that it shouldn't have to. To avoid "criminal negligence" accusations.

If I have a rock identification app does it need to say not to eat rocks to avoid liability for dental damages? If I sell bicycles do I have to tell you that rolling downhill fast can cause death or injury?

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