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Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

karlsutt.com

71–80 of 210 posts

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#71

> If you're an indie hacker, a boostrapper, a startup, an agency or a consultancy, or just a small team building a product, chances are you are not going to need the cost and complexity that comes with modern cloud platforms. Hard disagree. - On cost: there is almost nothing better for the indie hacker, bootstrapper, or startup than cloud services. I run apps on all three platforms (Google, AWS, and Azure) and my mon…

The AWS free tier lets you do a lot, and if you use it well, it lets you avoid up to about $50/month of digitalocean bills. If you're never planning on scaling past a hobby project, the free tier is a great place to stay. If your hobby project "goes viral," though, it might cost you a few thousand dollars, but hopefully that helps you get a lot more money to turn your hobby into a business. If you have commercial int…

Yep, we were easily saving a developer salary per month vs AWS using colo’d hardware even as a very small company. And god help you if you’re trying to run something bandwidth intensive on AWS.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#72
> It costs how much?!

Less than $5/month. Yes, on AWS. Serverless (the genuine kind, which scales to zero with pay-per-request) is pretty much free until you have actual users, and once you have actual users, you have actual revenue to pay your cloud bills. Unless your ($revenue / $hosting_costs) is less than 1.0, in which case, you don't have a business.

> "(LISP) programmers know the value of everything and the cost of nothing". A specific technology product never exists in a vaccuum — it has to communicate and co-exist with other components in the system. There are costs associated with every choice, often hidden costs.

An odd choice of quote, considering the author is promoting choices that costs orders of magnitude more money in the earliest stages, and inevitably provoke high migration costs when it comes time to move off those platforms.

> Cultivate a culture of ruthlessly fighting complexity

Again, an odd claim. Stacks like AWS Lambda and DynamoDB let me forget about scaling concerns* (asterisk because this is true in the early stages, slightly less true later, but still mostly true compared to traditional architecture). Those concerns absolutely rear their head when handing off to a site like Render that refuses to publish public pricing for their largest database instances, or talk about very common usecases like read replicas for analytics workloads.

> the harsh truth is that neither Lambda Functions, nor Kubernetes, nor Kafka on their own will magically make your app work correctly, be performant and deliver value.

But Redis, PostgreSQL, and PaaS-style service deployment magically will? You mean, early startup CTOs need to actually think about the architecture they propose to build to satisfy business needs? gasp

> "Why do we think this choice will provide the most value for users compared to the alternatives?"

Because serverless means not needing to hire DevOps. Because most companies running Kubernetes do not get anywhere near the ~38+% efficiency (last time I ran the numbers, and that's for production environments, not even including staging/testing/development environments) they need to make Kubernetes more cost-efficient than AWS Lambda, because developers just don't have time to figure out why the hell their services need a guaranteed vCPU, won't perform with less, and in the meantime their services are using less than 20% of the resources they requested - and they particularly don't have time to figure it out when Customer Support is happy, Product is happy, and Finance will cough up whatever budget is needed so long as Engineering says that it's "necessary". Because founders who actually think about optimizing for value, will optimize for what is scarce, and what is actually scarce is not money (plenty of money out there looking for the right investment opportunities that check all the right boxes), it is people. Serverless means hiring fewer people because you hand off undifferentiated heavy lifting.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#73

> - Terraform to create the API gateway, database, lambdas, queues, Route 53 records: 1 week - Terraform to create the IAM policies: 4 weeks Perhaps it's because I am very familiar with the aforementioned tool and cloud but 5 weeks for writing those resources gives me the impresion of: 1. Lack of experience on AWS. 2. Lack of experience with Terraform. 3. Both. I don't want to sound arrogant by any means but a Terraf…

It's a joke. Or at least I've interpreted it as such. Still true that you always spend more time terraforming the little things compared to what you expected.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#74
post #57

- Time it took to learn the skills to write a scalable service that can handle 100K events per second: 3 years - Time it took to write that API on localhost: 4 days - Time it took to learn Terraform and some AWS services, to create the API gateway, database, lambdas, queues, Route 53 records: 1 week - Time it took to learn AWS IAM policies to create the IAM policies in Terraform: 4 weeks Author conveniently left out…

In my experience Terraform was a horrible pain point, and yet I'd happily suffer it again. We can spin up and spin down transient UAT environments which are pristine and match PROD exactly in a matter of seconds and we can robustly test infrastructure changes. The improvement in developer productivity that entailed was worth the cost.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#75
These kind of blog posts treat this as a technical problem instead of a business problem.

Until you get some unicorn that says "we are profitable at price $X and all of our competitors are losing money at $X + $Y, and it's because of our software architecture and infrastructure choices", nobody is going to be convinced.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#77
If you are a starting out, you don't have to use terraform, use the console. Nothing stops you from using the managed services in a heroku box either. Need a queue for your API Heroku->SQS. Need storage, Heroku->S3. The industry always talks about best practices but rarely mentions maturity models which this article gets close to brining up but stops short.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#78
post #45

This article is written in kind of a controversial way but it seems like the throughline of the argument is something like "use heroku until you have 100k users". This seems very reasonable to me. I thought it was going to be a pitch for on prem, which is also fine for certain scales. I think generally the scaling steps from startup to megacorp go: Heroku/Dokku > Public Cloud >Dedicated servers in someone else's DC >…

I really agree with you, what's weird though is how many mega-corps are going away from Custom Hardware in Custom Built DC towards Cloud. There's also something to be said for buying a VPS or a Colo machine, making sure it's backed up and dealing with the 9's that you get from that machine on it's own. I am routinely surprised by how far a single node machine will get you.

These megacorps likely have IT which is not mega enough to justify owning a massive datacenter.

The right scale is Amazon, Google, Facebook, Microsoft. Likely much fewer than a hundred companies in the entire world.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#79
> Unless you hire a good (read: expensive) devops person to look after your infrastructure, clickops-ing your way through the AWS console will likely leave behind a pile of unused instances and components that will eat into your budget.

While this is true-ish (finding lost resources or just not creating them in the first place is not that complex), when the day comes that you will need/want to move to one of the cloud providers you will need a good devops to handle that hybrid cloud environment and making the transfer as painless as possible. cross cloud routing, DB migrations and not to mention setting up secure access for all of it is less complex in my POV then cost managing your cloud account

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#80
There is a middle way, just set your boundaries on which AWS services you want to use. 1 x EC2 server + 1 x application load balancer and a few S3 buckets works well for my hobby projects (ALB is just for multiple domain SSL and reverse proxy). You can run docker on the EC2 and deploy containers. Yes there is a small amount of setting things up in the AWS UI and some bash scripting for deployment, but then you'd have to configure your DNS and firewall somewhere with a VPS anyway.
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