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Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

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Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#71

Post by aequitas »

audunw wrote: post #10

This reminds me of James Burke Connections. That show often showed how many different and surprising dependencies there are on the path to any given invention. My favorite example is how the internal combustion engine needed an invention from perfume bottles to spray a good mist of fuel/air-mixture into the cylinder. Might have taken longer to invent ICE if that wasn't already readily available. I really hope that so…

> I really hope that someone remakes a modern version of Connections.

The premise of the show is still very actual, even more so with current technologies.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#72

Post by flavius29663 »

perilunar wrote: post #17
UncleSlacky wrote: post #5

Often multiple inventors arrive at the same idea at almost the same time, for example Edison and Swan for the light bulb, Meucci and Bell (among others) for the telephone, Tesla and Marconi for radio, the Wrights and many others for the airplane etc. possibly because the technological and social level of society has reached a certain point in its development when the "time is ripe" for a given invention. As Charles F…

The Wright Brothers didn't come up with the idea of the airplane at all — people had been working on it for over 100 years.

and without the Wright Brothers, the plane would have developed regardless, the time was indeed ripe for flying. People have been hopping around in self propelled planes for a few years before the Wrights, it would have only been a matter of time until they perfected it.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#73

Post by andrewla »

bitexploder wrote: post #20
cptaj wrote: post #18

An important factor seems to be precision engineering. I saw the point made in The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester, where they argue that while all the science and experimentation was there, it wasn't until precision parts were widely available that steam engines really solved all their problems and became viable https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-per…

In particular, the standardization of units and measurements and the lathe. Lathes with accuracy were a tremendously important component of producing steam engines.

This is a great thesis because it can be falsified.

The contention you are making is that between 1640 and 1690 the standardization of units of measurement and the invention of the lathe meant that Kalthoff (say) could not produce a viable steam engine in the 1640s, but Savery could successfully produce one in the 1690s.

I suspect this thesis is false, but I wanted to state it here before I did any research into it.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#74

Post by aaaaaaaaaaab »

steveBK123 wrote: post #35
cptaj wrote: post #18

An important factor seems to be precision engineering. I saw the point made in The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester, where they argue that while all the science and experimentation was there, it wasn't until precision parts were widely available that steam engines really solved all their problems and became viable https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-per…

Modern people overestimate how long we have been able to engineer things precisely. I used to use a lot of vintage German cameras. Really right up through the 1950s the tolerances were wide enough that no two cameras were exactly alike. The parts were all replaceable, and there were often adjustments & shims inside to keep things in spec. For example, one camera might have part A that's a little long so it's matching…

Resistor matching is still a thing to this day.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#76

Post by implements »

jmyeet wrote: post #36

Early steam engines were developed well before the locomotive steam engine, which is generally what we associate with the term "steam engine". I don't think you can overstate the importance of the technological development in the 19th century on these developments. The US presented a new need that I don't think really existed before: crossing vast distances over land, eventually all the way from the Atlantic coast to…

> Early steam engines were developed well before the locomotive steam engine, which is generally what we associate with the term "steam engine".

Atmospheric engines, WP has a good description and history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomen_atmospheric_engine

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#77

Post by Damogran6 »

virtualritz wrote: post #48
cptaj wrote: post #18

An important factor seems to be precision engineering. I saw the point made in The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester, where they argue that while all the science and experimentation was there, it wasn't until precision parts were widely available that steam engines really solved all their problems and became viable https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-per…

In the 80's my uncle, a trained mechanical engineer, tried to build a working scale small gauge steam locomotive at home for fun. He was a train geek. I reckon it was maybe 1/16 scale or the like. He machined all parts on his Emco Unimat II, a 70's hobbyist convertible lathe. The final piece was beautiful. Ultimately the kettle couldn't build up enough steam because of tolerances of parts. He machined the resp. parts…

That makes me wonder if I could do so with my 1966 South Bend...but then I think I'd probably finish the cylinder bore with a cheap Chinese Reamer, which is not something he would have probably wanted to purchase for a one off operation. (Think $300 for a cutting tool, vs one I can buy today for $25)

You bore thecylinder to rough dimension, then use the reamer to set it to final tolerance.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#78

Post by bluGill »

MeteorMarc wrote: post #27
bitexploder wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In particular, the standardization of units and measurements and the lathe. Lathes with accuracy were a tremendously important component of producing steam engines.

But the first lathes could not be steampowered!

Even after the steam eninge was common foot powered lathes existed. Or you can power a lathe from water.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#80

Post by jollyllama »

steveBK123 wrote: post #35
cptaj wrote: post #18

An important factor seems to be precision engineering. I saw the point made in The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester, where they argue that while all the science and experimentation was there, it wasn't until precision parts were widely available that steam engines really solved all their problems and became viable https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-per…

Modern people overestimate how long we have been able to engineer things precisely. I used to use a lot of vintage German cameras. Really right up through the 1950s the tolerances were wide enough that no two cameras were exactly alike. The parts were all replaceable, and there were often adjustments & shims inside to keep things in spec. For example, one camera might have part A that's a little long so it's matching…

Indeed, Any maker who has attempted certain kinds of projects (involving vacuum, mechanisms, etc.) will understand this.
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