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Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

nature.com

71–80 of 144 posts

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#71
post #64

> he work is a proof of principle that neurons in a dish can learn and exhibit basic signs of intelligence Absolutely not. This shows that you can teach neurons to exhibit a reflex behavior adapted to the given stimuli - which shouldn’t come as a surprise. At best this is jellyfish-like level of intelligence.

Transformers have shown that language development can also be explained by what you derisively call reflex behavior, with no need for specialized Chomskyan recursion circuitry, as the same mechanism with slight modification (decision transformers) also plays Pong.

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#72

SF author (and marine biologist) Peter Watts described something very much like this, only more advanced, in his book Maelstrom (2001): "Achilles Desjardins had always found smart gels a bit creepy. People thought of them as brains in boxes, but they weren't. They didn't have the parts. Forget about the neocortex or the cerebellum—these things had nothing. No hypothalamus, no pineal gland, no sheathing of mammal over…

I thought you were going to say Starfish by Watts, which also features smart gels.

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#73
post #66

A question for someone who understands the neurology and biology of this much more than I do: Once I have a group of neurons like this trained to do something, can I actually count on them to continue performing that task until they die? Or is it possible they spontaneously reorganize or "learn" a previously unseen behavioral pattern?

A related question: can I indefinitely test they're performing their task correctly? When operating these neurons for actual tasks, real time challenge-response-like testing is probably a good idea. But if they can learn, eventually they may be able to trick the tests. How would one design automated tests to evaluate the state of learning-capable systems?

Welcome to the field of QA automation

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#74
post #2

This is about 40x more cells than they used to fly a fighter jet in a simulation back in 2004. https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn1572 . I suppose the claim to fame in this similar study is the use of the title organoid and there's some legitimacy to that. Form and function are intimately tied in the brain and just a bunch of neurons on a petri dish isn't quite an organ.

Gosh, that study. It was the first time my faith in academia was severely shaken. As a 19yo, I spent around 6 hours reverse engineering what was going on, and then fell into a spiral of “Is this what academia is all about? Really?” Because I was so fascinated by the concept, then it was such a letdown…

It took some time to appreciate that there are some worthwhile ideas in that paper. But it was my first experience with “Academic lies about accomplishment to secure further funding.”

It’s hard to say whether “lie” or “severely exaggerate” is appropriate.

A method existed to measure a signal from a neuron. A second method existed to modify that signal. Whenever the plane crashed, the signal was modified slightly, until the plane flew level.

It didn’t learn to fly. The researcher modified a neuron (steady signal) until it gave the appropriate signal (e.g. zero) to fly level.

Negative signal, plane banks left. Positive signal, plane banks right. If plane crashes, modify neuron until signal is neither positive nor negative. That was the extent of the study.

In that context, do you feel like the neurons learned to fly? Maybe. It’s certainly similar in spirit to reinforcement learning in modern times. But I wouldn’t say that setting a signal to zero is a nice definition of “flew a plane”.

In other words, there was no active feedback; if you pointed the plane in a slightly different direction, it would immediately crash. It wasn’t doing anything more than setting the signal slowly over time to an answer that was known ahead of time. (Keep the plane level by not moving the controls.)

Suppose the neurons learned to draw a straight line. That was essentially what was being demonstrated here. If you substitute “plane crash” with “line becomes a curve”, it becomes much less exciting, to say the least.

“Isn’t that just learning to set a signal to a constant value?” “Yep” “Will it always become the same constant?” “Yep” “Can’t we already do that?” “Yep”

I was so disillusioned that it took many years to stop believing that academia itself was at fault for misinforming the public so badly. After all, it’s almost two decades later, and people still believe “rat brain flies plane” happened in 2004.

If I could go back in time, I’d tell myself not to worry about it; focus on the academics that are working quietly on the frontier, not the ones trying to raise funding for their lab.

At least the neurons in today’s study actually learned to play something. But if the past is any indication, I’d err on the side of skepticism.

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#75
post #64

> he work is a proof of principle that neurons in a dish can learn and exhibit basic signs of intelligence Absolutely not. This shows that you can teach neurons to exhibit a reflex behavior adapted to the given stimuli - which shouldn’t come as a surprise. At best this is jellyfish-like level of intelligence.

Every new AI gets demoted pretty quickly. Playing pong would have been once called AI.

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#76

A question for someone who understands the neurology and biology of this much more than I do: Once I have a group of neurons like this trained to do something, can I actually count on them to continue performing that task until they die? Or is it possible they spontaneously reorganize or "learn" a previously unseen behavioral pattern?

They're biological. A lot can happen :) Remember this includes weirdness like viruses, tumors, aging... as well as specifically neural stuff like habituation (diminished sensitivity to repeated stimulation), sensitisation (increased sensitivity to repeated stimulation), spontaneous misfiring, reorganisation (basically creating/destroying or upweighting/downweighting synapses) etc etc etc. Of course, then you'll need…

TIL I’m somewhat of a Petri dish myself.

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#77
post #4

i would urge people to read the paper instead. The 'learning' is a bit iffy , and this was meant to test the brain theory of Friston rather than plug neurons into pong. Still, great job on the neurotechnology involved and a step in the direction where we should be going, controlling large numbers of neurons Ars Technica has a better article, although they dont describe the dense electode array correctly: https://arst…

Genuine question: why "should" we be going in this direction?

because it's bottom-up, as opposed to mouse studies that impose our own ideas and record from a tiny fraction of brain cells

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#78
post #2

This is about 40x more cells than they used to fly a fighter jet in a simulation back in 2004. https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn1572 . I suppose the claim to fame in this similar study is the use of the title organoid and there's some legitimacy to that. Form and function are intimately tied in the brain and just a bunch of neurons on a petri dish isn't quite an organ.

Gosh, that study. It was the first time my faith in academia was severely shaken. As a 19yo, I spent around 6 hours reverse engineering what was going on, and then fell into a spiral of “Is this what academia is all about? Really?” Because I was so fascinated by the concept, then it was such a letdown… It took some time to appreciate that there are some worthwhile ideas in that paper. But it was my first experience w…

Do you know the actual study which did this?

Because the Nature citation on where the work was done is literally "The Discovery Channel".

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gosh, that study. It was the first time my faith in academia was severely shaken. As a 19yo, I spent around 6 hours reverse engineering what was going on, and then fell into a spiral of “Is this what academia is all about? Really?” Because I was so fascinated by the concept, then it was such a letdown… It took some time to appreciate that there are some worthwhile ideas in that paper. But it was my first experience w…

Do you know the actual study which did this? Because the Nature citation on where the work was done is literally "The Discovery Channel".

It was big news at the time. Headlines everywhere. Rat brain flies plane. You’d think that within a few years, maybe rat brains would be the primary way we’d control planes.

I did manage to track down the original study, which at the time wasn’t too easy; this was before scihub. I wish I’d saved it for posterity. My motivation went from “this is exactly what I want to do with my life” to laying on the couch wondering what the heck could possibly be happening, when the whole world believes rat brains are flying planes, vs what was actually demonstrated in the paper.

If you do find it, please post it. It’d be a nice stroll through memory lane, and an interesting retrospective on how to get funding for one’s own research lab. (A handy skill to have, if you don’t mind… well, exaggerating, to say the least.)

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#80
I wonder if in the future we'll have some sort of FPGA formed by a neural dish. Hook up an HDMI port to a cube of neurons and it OCRs text or tracks objects. I suspect biological variations in cells would make the results inconsistent, and far inferior to what we can do with semiconductors presently, but it's cool to think about.
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