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Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

theatlantic.com

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Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#71

Post by bluekeybox »

andrewflnr wrote: post #47
bluekeybox wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an absolutely great point. What if, for example, prices for things like conferences were lower for women? I'm sure that even men would appreciate a higher female-to-male ratio at such events (and women would not feel like black sheep being there). In fact, this is such a win-win scenario that I don't understand why this is not being done currently.

Because lowering prices for women would absolutely be sexism, by definition, and to a certain extent would cheapen their presence there. Maybe it would be worth it. Maybe you could spin it as a promo so it wasn't as big a deal. But that's why.

> lowering prices for women would absolutely be sexism

Just like affirmative action got called racial discrimination... Not really. I guess that's along the lines of how one would spin it.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#72

Post by chegra84 »

Mz wrote: post #56

If I am making a conscious decision to shut up every time a man and I start talking at the same time, then other women are engaging in even more extreme forms of self-censorship. Ditto that. When I went to GIS school for two months, a two-thirds male field, in the last week I finally realized that most of the women sat in the last two rows at the back of class. A few women kind of floated around, sometimes in front,…

I remember when I was participating in start-up weekend, one of the thoughts through my head was whoever the person sitting at the front I'm going to be on their team, whether male or female.

"Fortune favours the bold."[we won]

Why does aggression has to be bad? To me I kinda use it as a filter. I don't think I'm special, and a lot of other people have their radar set to identify aggressive people.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#73

Post by Groxx »

azernik wrote: post #58
Groxx wrote: post #46

> When I'm in group interviews or meetings, frequently I will start talking at the same time as a man starts talking. Almost always, I shut up and let the man finish talking, and hope I'll get a chance to ask a question later. And you don't see cause-effect in any of this? If you do this repeatedly, and then suddenly start asserting yourself, yes, it'll have a significantly larger impact on how you're viewed than if…

Read the next sentence: >>"They always preferred to work with a woman who stayed mum. But it made no difference to the men whether a guy had chosen to negotiate or not." I'm all for searching scientific studies to see what the researchers missed, but reading 17 words ahead would probably have taken you less time than writing a snarky comment.

And as to the second point? They admitted as much that men are more likely to negotiate - were those guys that had chosen to negotiate ones that had from the beginning, or ones that were silent and submissive until that point?

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#75

Post by zyb09 »

itmag wrote: post #48

Devil's advocate: could it have something to do with hardwired differences in the brain?

Well of course. The whole topic of inequality stems from us acting like the evolutionary animals we all are inside. The only way to counter act is to consciously analyze these behaviors and try to adjust ourselves.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#77

Post by jamesaguilar »

rflrob wrote: post #43
po wrote: post #31

What I like about this article is that it's not trying to point blame. It's not that men are actively trying to shut out women or making a hostile environment (although some probably are), it's that they do it in subtle ways without even noticing. It's not that women are too timid, it's that they are making the optimal short-term choice. I'm reminded of a study I read a looong time back (sorry I don't remember where)…

>It's not that women are too timid, it's that they are making the optimal short-term choice. [...] I would also suggest that if enough women ignored the stigma associated with being labeled a bitch, they would move the line is drawn a bit. That's not always possible but again, being aware of it helps. I wonder what kind of critical mass would be necessary to shift the norms, even in relatively liberal places, such th…

It'll probably end up being like something that approaches a limit more than exact equality. Five hundred years ago, women were barely better off than slaves. A hundred years ago, they couldn't vote. Fifty years ago, it was still considered impolite for them to have strong political views. Now, they are subtly discriminated against by men in a variety of contexts, but probably less so than at any time before in history. Fifty years from now, if we keep working on it, it'll probably be less. But I have trouble visualizing a model of the human brain where all of that discriminatory behavior is learned. Until we can edit our minds, there will probably still be some inequality.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#78

Post by Mz »

lusr wrote: post #70
TWSS wrote: post #41

The point about deferring to a man when you both start talking at the same time struck a chord. As the CEO of an early-stage startup with two male partners, I'm slowly breaking myself of that habit when we're talking to a mentor. It's painful to keep talking over my partner. Frankly, I label myself a pushy bitch when I do it. But the fact that I need to earn this title keeps me doing it.

I'm not sure I understand the assumption in the article, and in your comment, about it being important to talk over people. In my experience (as a male!), I tend to be most powerful when I shut up, listen to everybody talk for a while, identify their concerns and priorities, and formulate my position to make my point without wasting time stepping on toes (which you're likely to do if you speak before listening and un…

Long standing favorite anecdote from an article I read in a magazine eons ago:

A woman took a class on assertiveness in the 80's. The instructor was a female nazi-like drill sergeant type. They were expected to practice yelling in people's faces and being super pushy and the like. One day when it came her turn in class to yell at people and all that, the author of the piece said "No, I don't really want to do that. I like being nice to people." She was berated and told how she had no hope of getting anywhere in the world and so on. She continued to politely decline. The instructor finally gave up and moved on. The author quietly gathered her things and left the class, deciding she didn't want to complete the course. As she left, she overheard someone in the back row (who was dutifully waiting their turn to yell at people as they were told to) say "God, what a bitch!"

Don't confuse style vs substance.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#79

Post by paganel »

rachelbythebay wrote: post #4

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…

> I can see how they might think that if they had never been in a position of having it happen to them. If you find yourself doubting this happens, do this: ask ten women you know if they had ever negotiated for something, and what happened when they did. Then draw your own conclusions.

I never negotiated for something work-related, and I'm a man, I've been in the workforce for the last 10 years. My wife negotiates all the time, she works in procurement, it is her job. We've recently split, I left with nothing but the laptop on which I'm writing this comment, and she had to keep all the rest.

Which brings me to part two, the unspoken elephant in the living-room, the fact that women will always be allowed to "win" the kids in a divorce, no matter how hard men will try to win them. I guess that's just compensation.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#80

Post by Mz »

chegra84 wrote: post #72
Mz wrote: post #56

If I am making a conscious decision to shut up every time a man and I start talking at the same time, then other women are engaging in even more extreme forms of self-censorship. Ditto that. When I went to GIS school for two months, a two-thirds male field, in the last week I finally realized that most of the women sat in the last two rows at the back of class. A few women kind of floated around, sometimes in front,…

I remember when I was participating in start-up weekend, one of the thoughts through my head was whoever the person sitting at the front I'm going to be on their team, whether male or female. "Fortune favours the bold."[we won] Why does aggression has to be bad? To me I kinda use it as a filter. I don't think I'm special, and a lot of other people have their radar set to identify aggressive people.

I think I'm just extremely hard for people to read/guage. So anyone who wants to simplify the matter boils it down to something negative and moves on. I'm multi-cultural. I've traveled. I have an associate of arts in humanities but then my (unfinished) bachelor's is a BS, not a BA (in environmental studies). I also have a certificate in GIS. I'm not easily pigeon-holed and I make a lot of people uncomfortable. Labeling that discomfort in a simple way is likely a defense mechanism for many people.

Edit: Will add that I was a homemaker for a really long time. People seem to think that means I "should" be meeker.

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