Get in zoomer, we're saving React • Hacker News Board

Re: Get in zoomer, we're saving React

#71

Post by WizardClickBoy » Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 7:50 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #49

mwcampbell wrote: post #44

> What's really frustrating about all this is how passive and helpless the current generation of web developers seem to be in all this. It's as if they've all been lulled into complacency by convenience. They seem afraid to carve out their own ambitious paths, and lack serious gusto for engineering. If there isn't a "friendly" bot spewing encouraging messages with plenty of emoji at every turn, they won't engage. > A…

> Anybody know why this is the case? Because it's often true, although it's more cyclical than downhill. You have an open emerging technology and people start out self-reliant and have to learn from the ground up out of necessity, and over time things become so tower of babel like that new people can't or don't need to understand it anymore. Then it gets so bad that someone tears it down and you're back to the starti…

"Hard times create strong [developers]. Strong [developers] create good times. Good times create weak [developers]. And, weak [developers] create hard times."...?

Re: Get in zoomer, we're saving React

#72

Post by Fervicus » Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 7:59 AM UTC

Okay, so how are we saving React?

Re: Get in zoomer, we're saving React

#73

Post by silisili » Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 8:02 AM UTC

nl wrote: post #54

silisili wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty inexperienced take, out of context. People should absolutely learn from elders, even if they feel the elders are wrong. Which is pretty much, every young person who has ever existed. There are often nuggets of wisdom buried inside resistance to change. I often wonder how much further along we'd be as a society if we didn't spend the first couple decades thinking we know everything. Myself included.

"Wisdom" of elders should stand on its own by being well reasoned. If someone needs to say "listen to your elders" then they aren't able to articulate their argument well enough to stand without it. (I've been programming much longer than the 32 years claimed by the article author. No one should listen to me because I'm old, except in the case where I'm talking about specific incidents I witnessed that younger people…

> except in the case where I'm talking about specific incidents I witnessed that younger people didn't

All in interpretation. I implicitly assume 'listen to your elders' is about experience, not age. Perhaps others read that differently.

I don't think anyone is arguing a young PHD should do what an old chimney sweep tells him just because he's older. Unless of course said advice applies to PHD somehow.

Re: Get in zoomer, we're saving React

#74

Post by parasti » Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 8:08 AM UTC

b0afc375b5 wrote: post #65

mwcampbell wrote: post #44

> What's really frustrating about all this is how passive and helpless the current generation of web developers seem to be in all this. It's as if they've all been lulled into complacency by convenience. They seem afraid to carve out their own ambitious paths, and lack serious gusto for engineering. If there isn't a "friendly" bot spewing encouraging messages with plenty of emoji at every turn, they won't engage. > A…

I didn't read the article, but just based on the passages you have quoted and based on my recent experience, I will have to agree with the author. I recently learned that GitHub has a discussions page which is separate from the issues pages. To pass the time and to give back to the community I try to help people and answer their questions. It's a bit concerning to me that when I point some people to the right directi…

This isn't a new phenomenon. This strategy is proven to work largely because of people like you who put in time and effort to answer those types of questions with quality information. Stack Overflow was literally built on this very premise.

Re: Get in zoomer, we're saving React

#75

Post by whymauri » Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 8:14 AM UTC

absolutelynobo wrote: post #15

As a web application and zoomer myself, I haven’t the faintest idea what this article is talking about.

But, but, you won't program unless your PRs are stamped with emojis! And you also don't know how to dance! (??)

Re: Get in zoomer, we're saving React

#76

Post by berjin » Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 8:14 AM UTC

encryptluks2 wrote: post #27

> We're Saving React Website proceeds to slowly load and runs like crap.

It's the only site I've seen that doesn't work with dark reader. My millennial retinas are seared from the rays of brightness.

Re: Get in zoomer, we're saving React

#77

Post by TN1ck » Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 8:20 AM UTC

The author of this article also wrote the for me mind blowing things like MathBox2 [0], the Pixel Factory [1] and many more. The often mentioned clone of React in the article, described in "The GPU Banana Stand" [2] is something that wasn't heavily discussed here as I think the concepts are just very advanced. I mention this as I believe this is what the author is concerned about and what some might haven't experienced. Using React for "advanced" things were it just doesn't cut it and one has to go back to manual DOM manipulation, or having to dig very deep to understand how one can build UIs were the elements update 60 times per second. React works great for things were this is not a concern, but if the standard has these innate restrictions, what applications will the future hold if all people know is React?

Though not a fan of some rants and the bashing on Zoomers, give them a chance to build the next iteration of the common tools, the oldest Zoomer is 25 at the moment.

[0]: http://acko.net/files/pres/siggraph-2014-bof/online.html

[1]: https://acko.net/files/gltalks/pixelfactory/online.html#17

[2]: https://acko.net/blog/the-gpu-banana-stand/

Re: Get in zoomer, we're saving React

#78

Post by barbarbar » Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 8:22 AM UTC

cowtools wrote: post #43

chris_armstrong wrote: post #39

This article is weird linking together many unrelated strands of thought. Like linking reactive programming to “reactive” UIs, when really they mean UIs that are forgiving to their users instead of breaking down. Or how by coding on the web we’ve lost the immediacy of a UI that runs on our desktop, and the primitives (like undo/redo stacks) that make desktop user interfaces friendlier, at least without having to buil…

As someone who has admittedly worked on approximately 0 user-facing programs, it seems like there are not many revolutionary ideas when it comes UI. I have some dream of a sort of user-interface system that exposes controls and data more directly to the user, independent of the author's stylistic choices. Sort of like semantic HTML with style-sheets that are configured on a per-user basis. It would be analogous to th…

To me this idea sounds a little bit like how Java Swing works. At least it seems similar to the pluggable LookAndFeel? I think it was a great idea but it seems like it never got any traction. Or maybe more like Java never got popular on desktop.

Re: Get in zoomer, we're saving React

#79

Post by wokwokwok » Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 8:24 AM UTC

Existenceblinks wrote: post #13

> Crucially, none of the React alternatives solve this FFS. The context is the web, nobody solves graphic problem like gaming for you, or need to. At this point it doesn't matter because HTML/DOM stuff is not going to suffice what you are talking about either. I honestly think after reading 50% of the article is all about bragging knowing history. I'm not old but I was there too. WIN32, MFC, QT, 8086 assembly whateve…

> FFS. The context is the web, nobody solves graphic problem like gaming for you, or need to…

I don’t think you understood the article.

The point he was making is that a good user interface is hard to build and is “app like”, with all the weird edge cases.

…and that, for better or worse:

1) react is the best at doing that.

2) react is (frustratingly) not making itself better at it, and is instead prioritising weird stuff like server side rendering, that is pretty niche in terms of value.

3) react competition is basically just “still the same shit web ui” but easier to build and with nicer tooling.

So, I mean, yeah it’s a rant.

…but hey, I think you’re failing if you walk away from it going “wtf was that?”.

He’s right.

Making “app like” websites is pretty hard; it’s very hard with some frameworks.

Apps are better, in almost every way.

That sucks.

No one except react was really even fighting that battle, and they seem to have lost interest.

That kind of sucks too.

Does react suck? Maybe.

…but, tldr; if you’re gonna take a big dump on react from a grey height, at least do so from a position of thoughtfulness.

“No, I’m happy with building a web ui, I don’t need slick user interactions or an interface design rather than just a form”

Cool. That’s fine. The MVP will be quick to build.

Not everyone needs to be figma.

…but pick the tool for the job; and some of the new frameworks are very finely crafted tools for a very specific job; and that job is building a generic web ui.

…but hey, the web is the context right?

So that’s fine, if you don’t care.

Re: Get in zoomer, we're saving React

#80

Post by qprofyeh » Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 8:32 AM UTC

Author uses a tone, terms and phrases (FOB) that are really off putting. It’s sad because the subject is interesting. Luckily this HN thread is great.