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Tillitis Key – Mullvad spin-off inspired by measured boot and DICE

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Re: Tillitis Key – Mullvad spin-off inspired by measured boot and DICE

#71

Post by tyingq »

arsome wrote: post #33
pxeger1 wrote: post #19

It strikes me that open source hardware should be more common. It's surely much easier to monetise than open source software: you just sell the hardware, because noone wants to build one themselves. Why isn't it?

No one wants to built it themselves until people actually want it, if your device is popular then your device is $2 on AliExpress/eBay and you have no part in that, look at Arduino for a good example.

This...if it's successful, a knockoff of your device will end up on eBay, AliExpress, Amazon, etc, often with sketchy parts, at a price you'll never match. With some exceptions, where you're able to make the product depend on a hard-to-get-cheap part, etc.

Re: Tillitis Key – Mullvad spin-off inspired by measured boot and DICE

#72

Post by filleokus »

Cool! Always nice to see extra competition in this space.

One thing I've wanted for a while is a way to properly backup a webauthn token. An approach I discussed a couple of weeks ago [1] was:

1: Generate on-hardware webauthn master key on device A.

2: Generate on-hardware key-pair on device B

3: Export B’s public key, import to A

4: On Device A: Encrypt master key with B’s public key

5: Export encrypted master key to B

6: Decrypt on B

I guess this would probably be possible with this device? Perhaps there are some even more clever way to do it.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32621426

Re: Tillitis Key – Mullvad spin-off inspired by measured boot and DICE

#73

Post by _8j50 »

LASR wrote: post #14
Foxboron wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good VPN company (one of the best) and good idea (sounds like USB Armory). But the best it can do is assure that their VMs are not logging anything and keep other promises. Will they also be able to share details of their hosting setup in a way you can independently verify (because they can always have more middleware transparent traffic logging VMs)? doubt it, same goes to whomever they use for hosting. We are wor…

I’ve always wondered what is feasible through a state-issued mandate along with a gag order to circumvent the technology for something like this.

That's what I mean about risk asessment. You should not expect mullvad or any other legally liable organization to resist lawful orders or unlawful coercion, these are not reasonable expectations and your security posture should account for that.

Re: Tillitis Key – Mullvad spin-off inspired by measured boot and DICE

#74

Post by dbrgn »

Are you aware of Trussed, an initiative by SoloKeys and Nitrokey? https://solokeys.com/blogs/news/trussed-announcement / https://trussed.dev/

From what I understand, this is an API to write applications against a common interface, which can run on different hardware devices. An abstraction layer for security key apps. Similar to Java Card, but in a more modern way. Is this something that would or could be compatible with Tillitis?

Re: Tillitis Key – Mullvad spin-off inspired by measured boot and DICE

#75

Post by _8j50 »

Foxboron wrote: post #11
_8j50 wrote: post #7

Good VPN company (one of the best) and good idea (sounds like USB Armory). But the best it can do is assure that their VMs are not logging anything and keep other promises. Will they also be able to share details of their hosting setup in a way you can independently verify (because they can always have more middleware transparent traffic logging VMs)? doubt it, same goes to whomever they use for hosting. My point is,…

> Good VPN company (one of the best) and good idea (sounds like USB Armory). But the best it can do is assure that their VMs are not logging anything and keep other promises. Will they also be able to share details of their hosting setup in a way you can independently verify (because they can always have more middleware transparent traffic logging VMs)? doubt it, same goes to whomever they use for hosting. We are wor…

Thanks for the response and your transparency, it looks like you folks really believe in your mission.

The most revolutionary thing you are doing in my opinion is "registration" and email free account management and accept various forms of payment. You are way ahead of your time! Other apps and sites outside of VPN services could do so well to follow your example.

Re: Tillitis Key – Mullvad spin-off inspired by measured boot and DICE

#77

Post by panick21_ »

zx85wes wrote: post #68
JoachimS wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the board design is done by the wizard Matt Mets at https://blinkinlabs.com/

OMG. Just saw the Thinking Machines CM-2 replica on their homepage. What an awesome idea.

Yeah, super cool. A old school lisp machine would be cool as well.

Re: Tillitis Key – Mullvad spin-off inspired by measured boot and DICE

#78

Post by JoachimS »

zimbatm wrote: post #65
JoachimS wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(For full disclosure I am the primary FPGA designer of TillitisKey.) It also perform a measurement of the application being loaded. And the measurement together with the Unique Device Secret (UDS) will generate the primary secret applications can use to derive keys etc it needs. This means that you can verify the application integrity. This is very close to, inspired by DICE: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/…

Does this mean that a software upgrade will change the keys?

For now, yes. But as Fredrik (kfreds) has written in another comment. What is possible to do is a two stage approach with an application (which gets measured) loading other applications.

Re: Tillitis Key – Mullvad spin-off inspired by measured boot and DICE

#79

Post by handsclean »

_8j50 wrote: post #7

Good VPN company (one of the best) and good idea (sounds like USB Armory). But the best it can do is assure that their VMs are not logging anything and keep other promises. Will they also be able to share details of their hosting setup in a way you can independently verify (because they can always have more middleware transparent traffic logging VMs)? doubt it, same goes to whomever they use for hosting. My point is,…

Let’s not frame this as trust them vs don’t, it’s trust them vs trust your ISP. On one hand, you have a company that seems to be doing as much as possible to commit to privacy, and on the other, a company that straight up tells you they’re monitoring you and sending the data all over the place. Does that scale really tilt differently if you point out there’s a non-zero chance the first company is secretly just as bad as the second?

Re: Tillitis Key – Mullvad spin-off inspired by measured boot and DICE

#80

Post by JoachimS »

Matl wrote: post #60
ptman wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FTR SoloKeys targets FIDO2, not just U2F

I think what they mean is that this can be reprogrammed for more use cases than FIDO2 and U2F, it can say be programmed to support my own homegrown thing that I've made up just now or even a more general concept than just getting into things perhaps.

Yes. And your application will get a per device unique primary secret when loaded, which the application then can use for whatever it needs. (Including not using it all all.)

TOTP, FIDO2, PIV, simple touch triggered challenge/response... or something completely different. If it can fit in around 100 kByte RAM when compiled for RV32IMC and not be too computationally expensive, it could be a Tillitis app.

Just to give you some indication, the Ed25519 signer operation in the SSH authentication we showed on stage today takes ~ one second to perform the signing. And we have several ways to improve that we know already.

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