71–80 of 703 posts
I worked on a SAP project for a Legal Entity Creation/Staff Migration in the HR piece. Technology wise, it's weird. It reminds me a bit of Lotus Notes, in that everything including the screen layouts are stored in the database.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a genuine question, I don't mean to rip on you: Why is everything SAP I've used terrible? From payroll, employee/student management to industrial control systems - the UX is horrible and it seems so brittle that you're happy if you're out of there as quickly as possible. I've had to reach out to my school's IT multiple times over the years since random parts of the SAP tool they used break.
I think it's mostly the culture surrounding SAP. SAP developers are a lot of times slow to adapt to new technology. For the UI you can use react components https://sap.github.io/ui5-webcomponents-react/?path=/story/g... or you can just generate OData services from CDS Views that are then integrated into your frontend https://blogs.sap.com/2022/02/24/sap-cds-for-new-and-experie... . The problem is that a lot of people…
I remember SAP circa 2003. The only think that used XMLHttpRequest (AJAX aka dynamic html) was Outlook web frontend, and SAP web UI. GMail that widely popularized dynamic html did not even existed yet.
I am an SAP developer since kind of forever, my first job after university (since 2009). First I hated it, but the deeper I am entrenched, the more I see why you choose SAP: Because there really is no alternative. The data model is so complex because it is growing iteratively since the 80s. Hacker News is valuing businesses that adjust to the customer instead of going for some kind of purity. Another complexity espec…
Speaking of purity, the first thing Hacker News would do is try to run SAP on a Kubernetes cluster, refactor crucial bits in Rust and shard the database into sqlite3.db files on per user basis. We'd also recommend you restructure your office for a more open space, bring down the cubicles and make sure the conference rooms are glasswalled and have funny names. Bringing pets to work is mandatory.
I am an SAP developer since kind of forever, my first job after university (since 2009). First I hated it, but the deeper I am entrenched, the more I see why you choose SAP: Because there really is no alternative. The data model is so complex because it is growing iteratively since the 80s. Hacker News is valuing businesses that adjust to the customer instead of going for some kind of purity. Another complexity espec…
This is a genuine question, I don't mean to rip on you: Why is everything SAP I've used terrible? From payroll, employee/student management to industrial control systems - the UX is horrible and it seems so brittle that you're happy if you're out of there as quickly as possible. I've had to reach out to my school's IT multiple times over the years since random parts of the SAP tool they used break.
a) Engineering: Nobody will rewrite 20 year old views just to improve the UX. In many cases, nobody even dares to touch the 20 years old spaghetti code.
b) Sales: The buyer is not the user. The buyer (playing golf with a sales rep) doesn't give a damn about the actual productivity of what he is buying.
c) Management: There is a solid economical rationale in not giving a fcuk about UX. Over the years, SAP outcompeted and absorbed many competitors that were more interested in UX than golf. Golf won every single time. Nobody at the top understands or cares about UX because it does not bring more revenue, it is a cost.
Source: I am an ex SAP.
I am an SAP developer since kind of forever, my first job after university (since 2009). First I hated it, but the deeper I am entrenched, the more I see why you choose SAP: Because there really is no alternative. The data model is so complex because it is growing iteratively since the 80s. Hacker News is valuing businesses that adjust to the customer instead of going for some kind of purity. Another complexity espec…
Speaking of purity, the first thing Hacker News would do is try to run SAP on a Kubernetes cluster, refactor crucial bits in Rust and shard the database into sqlite3.db files on per user basis. We'd also recommend you restructure your office for a more open space, bring down the cubicles and make sure the conference rooms are glasswalled and have funny names. Bringing pets to work is mandatory.
Also you can re-write everything in Rust https://blogs.sap.com/2020/07/23/learning-rust-with-cap-part...
I'm not sure why in the early days they were more succesful than the competitors (JD Edwards, BAAN, etc) - all of the others were doing something similar but SAP overtook them all. Perhaps it was because the system was very flexible - if you needed to enhance the SAP-delivered functionality or build your own to integrated with SAP, they delivered tooling to do so (very crude in the early days, a lot better now).
Related to this is that almost all application souce is available to customers (not open source, but available to view and modify if required). For those who've never worked with SAP, the majority of the application code in their on-premise systems is written in a proprietary COBOL-like 4GL called ABAP. One of SAP's key differentiators in the early years was that customers had access to all of this code and, with the required access, could extend/modify as needed. A masterstroke IMHO.
Source: I've worked as an SAP consultant for 20+ years (including a fair number of those working for SAP) and I'm no fan of any of their products. For the number of extremely intelligent people who work there (and I mean that sincerely - a lot of their employees are /extremely/ smart and forward thinking), the code quality and quality control of their products is abysmal. It's like the majority of the code is written by people who did a training course last week and they /love/ overengineering things, reinventing the wheel or backing the wrong horse. SAP went all in on Silverlight at one point and these days they love OData, which NO-ONE really uses. It also took them years and years to officially support a browser other than IE.
At times they have done some pretty forward-thinking things though. In the late 80s they adopted three-tier before most (R/3, the first three-tier release came out in 1992) and they cleverly have a very portable application. Back in the days of the Unix wars SAP ran on pretty much every OS and all the major databases (heck, Microsoft had to convince them to port to NT and SQL Server, primarily so that Microsoft could run SAP on NT in their own back office).
Rambling a bit here but SAP still pays my bills (and fairly well at that), but I'm no fan and I'm always looking for a way out. Unfortunately, for me the situation is like many SAP customers - once you've checked in, it's hard to leave (apologies to The Eagles).
I am an SAP developer since kind of forever, my first job after university (since 2009). First I hated it, but the deeper I am entrenched, the more I see why you choose SAP: Because there really is no alternative. The data model is so complex because it is growing iteratively since the 80s. Hacker News is valuing businesses that adjust to the customer instead of going for some kind of purity. Another complexity espec…
This is a genuine question, I don't mean to rip on you: Why is everything SAP I've used terrible? From payroll, employee/student management to industrial control systems - the UX is horrible and it seems so brittle that you're happy if you're out of there as quickly as possible. I've had to reach out to my school's IT multiple times over the years since random parts of the SAP tool they used break.
I jest. But that's kind of the point. SAP is terrible by the nature of the beast. It's a closed off system with specialised developers who require all sorts of expensive certifications. That doesn't make for good developers, that makes for pigeon-holed developers who don't have a lot of competition.
A terrible SAP developer with all the certifications to their name would probably still find plenty of work, because the expectations are low to begin with, as proven by SAP being held in low regard across the industry.
To me, needing expensive certifications to prove your worth (as if...) is a big red flag. I'm a developer who has 20+ years of experience, I recently worked for Apple and other Fortune top 50 companies, I went from startups to enormous companies.
Nowhere did I need certifications. And my past experience was never enough to land a job. I'd have to prove myself in every job application. That's tiresome and feels extremely unnecessary, but it requires me (and my peers) to stay sharp.
Of course, none of the above is very black and white. There are certified developers who are amazing, and there are open-source developers who keep themselves relevant who actually suck at what they do.
But I'd argue that the SAP group of developers have far more developers who aren't very good and grow complacent, oftentimes because of their certifications. That, combined with a closed-off system, bad documentation, a lack of online support, and a much smaller community, will MORE often lead to software that is of lower quality.
It mirrors a dysfunctional business run on command-and-control rather than, like AWS, you have a large set of loosely affiliated teams and although you risk some duplication, it makes for much more agile work.
Imagine you have a supplier who supplies "products" but your system calls them "items", SAP would say that you have to standardise the nomenclature. Agile says, let them call them whatever works for them and lets build small systems with just the interfaces we need.
Sure, the senior management don't get their dashboards but it is still possible to get metrics from disparate systems and form pretty basic cashflow and inventory reports.
Whenever I read about SAP (which I hate, so don't mistake this for an objective take) it reminds me of the discussion about self-hosting your email: "Oh, no, it's too complicated, you are better off paying someone else to do it for you". The problem being, I host my own email and it works fine , which makes me suspicious of the common takes about ERP too. Now, I get it, once you have to deal with taxes and payroll in…
So, full disclosure, I worked 4 years in SAP's LinuxLab (ending 16 years ago). I also hated interacting with their interfaces, but I do understand why they exist: Comparison with hosting your own email is like a dozen orders of magnitude off in complexity. SAP really only makes sense for ginormous corporations, but up in that range, Oracle's ERP is the only real competition. Just the kernel of SAP is on the order of…
But there's literally decades of use cases and experience contained in that code. That's one major issue with people thinking about rewriting software, they vastly underestimate the amount of things in there.
I mean on the surface SAP is just a database with a UI and some business rules - 99% of software is - but that in itself is so often underestimated.
(Source: anecdotal, I underestimated 'just' a configuration interface, except that it had hundreds of models and thousands of fields. In hindsight I should've looked for an off-the-shelf data management thing where all I would have had to do was configure the fields and validation rules and some rough layout. Instead I tried to build it in naive Go, sqlite, a REST API and a React/bootstrap front-end. It's a great solution IMO, but not if you're a solo developer working on a domain that big).
This is a good time to remind everyone of the rules of SAP integration: 1) Your company processes MUST adapt to SAP processes. That's it. You can try customising SAP to fit your processes, but you will just waste time and hundreds of millions of money and then you will fail. Lidl spent almost a decade and 500M€ on its SAP project, but didn't follow rule #1: https://www.henricodolfing.com/2020/05/case-study-lidl-sap-d…
> You can try customising SAP to fit your processes So you are paying hundreds of millions to get a canned, pre-packaged, inflexible solution? Why is SAP still in business? Is it solely customer misinformation?
If you go too far, a SAP version upgrade is no longer a drop-in operation, but rather a year long project of porting all your changes to the new version.
If you stay as vanilla as possible, upgrades are a lot easier.