Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one • Hacker News Board

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#71

Post by ryukafalz » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

xor99 wrote: post #54

Some of the arguments seem misplaced via bad assumptions. This is exactly the approach that will alienate trad thinkers who need to be convinced in order for any effective action to be taken. Here are the issues I had: - Highly processed food, including fake meat, could be extremely bad for you. The point is we just don't know yet as there isn't good data. - Dense cities have the potential to be inhumane and not wort…

> Dense cities have the potential to be inhumane and not worth living in for various health (e.g. particulates, aerosols, nitrogen, disease)

Sure they have the potential for this, but only if we don’t take these problems into account and mitigate them. Take particulates for example (and noise, which you didn’t mention but is also an issue); a lot is from cars. If we assume that every city resident will have and frequently use a car, then sure that becomes an issue. But if we provide viable alternatives to driving and make them as or more convenient than driving, much less of an issue.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#72

Post by samatman » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

seasox wrote: post #4

Don‘t think about microwave vs. stove. Instead, do the following: 1. stop buying meat 2. stop eating meat 3. stop buying dairy-based products 4. stop eating dairy-based products 5. stop eating eggs, honey, fish 6. use public transport, if possible 7. don‘t fly, if possible Congrats, you now are an environmentalist.

No, but I do appreciate your personal boycott making animal foods less expensive without having any marginal effect on production. As an avid consumer of such foods: thank you for your service.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#73

Post by gruez » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

b3morales wrote: post #66

gruez wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The plastic bag may have a lower carbon footprint, but it isn't going to biodegrade as quickly, and may end up turning into microplastics that persist for a long time. What you described is a non-issue if the bag is disposed of properly. Presumably you, as a environmentalist can be relied upon to do that.

Could you elaborate on what proper disposal looks like?

landfill (properly engineered and regulated[1]) or incineration.

[1] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-I...

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#74

Post by dbingham » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:13 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #68

dbingham wrote: post #5

This is what happens when you optimize for only a single variable. And the end result won't be what you want it to be. It doesn't do us any good to stop climate change if the ecosystem still collapses out from under us. Creating a sustainable environment is a systems problem and carbon is just one of many variables in that system. Yes, it's a really important one and in many ways it is the most pressing. But biodiver…

What do you anticipate the effect of GPT3 will be in the reviewing process?

I honestly have no idea. I don't think I know nearly enough about GPT3 to hazard a guess.

I could imagine using natural language processing as part of looking at generating an automated Q&A algorithm or attempting to automate literature reviews in some way, but in the review process?

Someone I was talking to the other day was suggesting using sentiment analysis during the review process as a kind of tone grammarly aid to help people write constructive reviews, which is interesting. But I think that's different from GPT3.

Judging from your bio, I would guess you have much strong ideas about that answer to that question than I do. What are your thoughts?

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#75

Post by akomtu » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:20 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #73

b3morales wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on what proper disposal looks like?

landfill (properly engineered and regulated[1]) or incineration. [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-I...

In the future there will be an acid-like substance used to safely dissolve almost anything, except maybe metals and stones.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#76

Post by zahma » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #17

dbingham wrote: post #5

This is what happens when you optimize for only a single variable. And the end result won't be what you want it to be. It doesn't do us any good to stop climate change if the ecosystem still collapses out from under us. Creating a sustainable environment is a systems problem and carbon is just one of many variables in that system. Yes, it's a really important one and in many ways it is the most pressing. But biodiver…

By the way, this is exactly what a climate change denier would write, except that that would talk about collapsing the economy if we focused too much on reducing carbon emissions. The truth is reducing CO2 emissions is an emergency, and any other environmental considerations other than doing that is just arguing about deck chairs on the Titanic. At this point, we would have been in a much better position if the Green…

“The truth is reducing CO2 emissions is an emergency, and any other environmental considerations other than doing that is just arguing about deck chairs on the Titanic.”

This statement is wrong. Climate and collapsing ecosystems/biodiversity are connected, and one is not more urgent than the other.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#77

Post by xnx » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:25 PM UTC

You can't make decisions about "environmentalism" if you haven't decided on your goals. Reduce greenhouse gases? Reduce solid waste and microplastics? Reduce animal suffering? Preserve biodiversity and habitat? Give the social appearance of being "green"?

My imperfect personal tactic is to consume less of everything.

Refuse -> Reduce -> Reuse -> Recycle

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#78

Post by dqv » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:26 PM UTC

dbingham wrote: post #62

dqv wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because there is evidence that meat production done right IE intensive rotation grazing or silvopasture where the meat is grazed on a small section of land at a time and most of the land is left fallow most of the time can actually drastically increase ecosystem services. It allows the land to function as native prairie or savanna. >Meanwhile monocultured grain, beans, and veggies - especially conventional with heav…

Yea, I do agree that we need to reduce meat consumption and focus on sustainably grazed operations for the meat that is consumed. But that's not the same as putting it on top of the list. Ever since Cowspiracy came out (which has been roundly debunked) there's been this segment of the environmental movement that wants to put beef on the top of the list of carbon problems. It just doesn't belong there and there are so…

>And since people have limited capacity to make lifestyle changes, we need them to focus that capacity where it will do the most good. Meat just isn't it - transporation, housing, energy - those are where it belongs.

Diet is actually one of the easiest things for people to change. You have to eat every day. And there is evidence this personal choice has affected markets. Walmart wouldn't be selling more soy milk, selling tempeh, producing their own plant-based cheese if it was just a non-impactful minority changing their habits. Even if it takes a year to change, it helps people understand they can do things that do help the environment.

Everything you describe - transportation, housing, energy are all things that take often decades to reform. Giving people something they can do right now to make a collective impact (however small the impact) is worthwhile. It brings a certain kind of spirituality to the movement - even if I can't switch to an EV or the bus takes too long or I rent, so I can't do energy efficient changes, I can still eat food that reduces my impact on the environment. I can eat with people who share environmentalist feelings. We can come to collective conclusions, like deciding to take the bus to go downtown tomorrow instead of driving. We can share emotions about our worry, but also our optimism for the future. When it comes time to demand systemic changes, we already have a well-organized cohort to proselytize for those changes.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#79

Post by throwaway3b03 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:29 PM UTC

theqabalist wrote: post #14

seasox wrote: post #4

Don‘t think about microwave vs. stove. Instead, do the following: 1. stop buying meat 2. stop eating meat 3. stop buying dairy-based products 4. stop eating dairy-based products 5. stop eating eggs, honey, fish 6. use public transport, if possible 7. don‘t fly, if possible Congrats, you now are an environmentalist.

Congrats, you are actually just an inconsequential stooge. Environmental corruption and depletion is not a consumer problem, at least not directly. It is a product of industrial production processes. Eat meat, eat dairy, preserve your health and your brain in doing so, and find ways to create industry that is clean, that would make you an environmentalist... maybe... if you successfully altered the system. Stop prete…

> Stop pretending like climate change is created by consumers

But it is actually created by consumers. By human beings consuming resources and emitting greenhouse gases in return. Simply because there's nothing else even close in scale as a source of global warming. What else could there be, wild herbivores?

It follows almost tautologically that it is human beings that is causing the warming.

You blame "industrial production processes". But those are completely funded by human consumption in a mostly on-demand action.

So what else is there to blame? The transportation industry? Again, completely funded by, and a direct response of consumers buying stuff. Consumption is at the beginning of the chain. It's the cause.

So your argument sounds wrong to me. It sounds like you want to shift blame to wealthy industrialists. Guess what, a fat bank balance or stock ownership like that of Elon Musk or Bezos does not emit greenhouse gases by simply existing.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#80

Post by akomtu » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:31 PM UTC

seasox wrote: post #4

Don‘t think about microwave vs. stove. Instead, do the following: 1. stop buying meat 2. stop eating meat 3. stop buying dairy-based products 4. stop eating dairy-based products 5. stop eating eggs, honey, fish 6. use public transport, if possible 7. don‘t fly, if possible Congrats, you now are an environmentalist.

This is just performance, like chaining yourself to a concrete slab. The real thing, if anyone really cared, would be to prosecute manufacturers for planned obsolescence. A washing machine uses a plastic bearing instead of a slightly more exlensive aluminum one? You send it to an FTC like agency, they inspect it and send some VP to jail. This would drastically reduce the size of plastic islands in the oceans, emissions from factories (who are busy manufacturing junk to replace broken junk).