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Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

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Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#71

Post by csa »

systemvoltage wrote: post #48
Qem wrote: post #29

1) Hitler did a favor to US, starting an idiotic xenophobic/racist campaign in Europe, causing bright scientists to flee in droves to seed US research institutions; 2) Once the British empire and later US became economic powerhouses, English became the de facto research language, what gave English-speaking researchers home turf advantage in access the research literature; 3) The budgetary constraints to universities…

> starting an idiotic xenophobic/racist campaign in Europe Today, Asians are fighting for equality in US educational system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v... This is most likely going to lead to striking down Affirmative Action. I suggest leaving emotions out of this and read the actual case materials. There is a lot of intellectual discourse, nuance and vigorious debate in those materi…

> Today, Asians are fighting for equality in US educational system

You seem to have read the details of the case, yet you say that Asian Americans are fighting for equality by citing a case that has determined at the lower level and appellate court that no systemic discrimination occurred.

Please don’t extend this meme… Asian Americans are doing just fine in admissions across the board at US institutions.

1. The appellate judge has confirmed the lower court ruling that no quota-based discrimination was found.

2. Even if true (it’s not), it is only at a some (10-20?) elite universities. It is definitely not systemic.

3. Harvard undergrad population is ~26% Asian American. US population is ~6%. This is not a perfect comparison for discrimination, but it hardly reeks of xenophobia (not really relevant for Asian Americans in the US) or racism.

4. The only reason this argument has any potential merit is because Asian Americans have higher average grades and SAT scores than the rest of the admitted population. This would indicate discrimination if those were the only admissions factors, but they are not (at Harvard, I believe SAT and grades would be part of one factor out of five that includes things like sports, and this is similar at several other elite schools).

5. Note that the “students for fair admissions” are hoping that the Supreme Court overturns the appellate court decision and thereby possibly ending affirmative action. Basically, their case is encouraging less overall diversity at elite schools for theoretical benefits to Asian Americans (note that imho it will backfire in a number of ways… look at what has happened to Stuyvesant and Berkeley for examples).

Grades and SAT scores are easy to understand for everyone. Furthermore, for kids whose parents came from East Asia, where entrance to elite universities is (for most entrants) exclusively exam-based, this is a very unintuitive system. The logic that some folks hold (both Asian Americans and non-Asian Americans) is that perfect grades and perfect SATs should get you into the best school, but that’s just not how the admissions systems at these elite schools work.

All of these schools talk about how they want a well-rounded student body, and the admissions materials make it clear that they are looking for a wider range of students beyond bookish brainiacs. I will add that if an applicant wants to get into an elite school based on academics, then grades and SATs are not enough to catch the attention of the admission committee — great grades and SATs alone only make an applicant look similar to thousands of other applicants.

Anyway, I wish the best of luck to anyone applying to an elite school. But if they do, I hope that they focus their application on something other than grades and SATs — they will have a tough time getting in otherwise.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#72

Post by asabjorn »

anonporridge wrote: post #47
Enginerrrd wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also don't live in the antithesis of a meritocracy either. Competency is usually rewarded, and rewards are pretty well correlated with competency. There's plenty of room in the tails one can cite to justifyany opinion on the matter, but on average I think we're far more meritocratic than not.

On the scale of nepotism meritocracy, the US is probably much closer to meritocracy than most human societies have been. Are there examples of societies who have done meritocracy better, from which we can take ideas to improve our own system?

Do you think this remains true with DIE and affirmative action being implemented in all major employers, universities and institutions? It is not fashionable to point to the unmeritocratic treatment of Asians and white males, so I guess I will point out the emperors nakedness.

Hiring people of all backgrounds that agree with a forced marxist outcome (diversity), firing people dissenting to Marxist forced outcome or shutting them up (inclusion), and a forced marxist outcome (equity) never lead to meritocracy in other places. Why would it here?

Likewise, affirmative action in hiring and research grants favor a less productive woman or a less competent person with the right identity category. Affirmative action categories are from the 60s when the US had a very different demographic, and whom held high status office jobs looked very different.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#73

Post by juve1996 »

streptomycin wrote: post #56
dekhn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, but that spend isn't well distributed, and things are more expensive in the US (I assume your nubers are not corrected for the price index of each country).

That's true, but generally the worst school districts are the ones that get the most money, although the exact way money is distributed varies by region. For instance, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_district describes how NJ gives tons of money to schools in poor areas, although it does not seem to have produced any better educational outcomes.

Does "get the most money" equate to "has the most money?"

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#74

Post by jollybean »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #52
jollybean wrote: post #24

US spends more on education as a % of GDP than anywhere. Big Private schools with tons of money may actually not be egalitarian but it sure does bring out a lot of hard hitting talent. The US has a large, growing economy, which helps. And the US is very 'open' - both civilly (immigration) and culturally (association). Most nations don't have a lot of immigration and Europe, though very nice to it's immigrants, mostly…

Could you expand on what it means to be culturally open or closed? Like, what's the 'lived experience' in both?

Civil things are laws, workplace, how you treat strangers in public and in professional settings.

Social things are culture, friends, etc. and obviously they overlap.

Europe is generally good to immigrants. They have nice laws, egalitarian policies, corporations that try to look beyond just hiring locals. Etc. etc..

But it's much harder for immigrants in Europe to 'fit in', to make friends, to participate in all the 3rd space stuff, to 'get the jokes', which means being invited to the 'thing', maybe it's a business thing, maybe not quite looked at for promotion etc.. And a lot of business is still done through social networks, a 'guy who knows a guy', from 'introductions'. I wouldn't say downright 'nepotism' but the Uncle who works at the Space Agency who puts his nephews name in for an internship etc..

So it's like 'marginalization by being an outsider' as opposed to any kind of negative or oppressive actions by the in group. (I'm not denying racism or whatever, just saying most things are not really overt, and it's more about people 'self selecting' people 'like them' as opposed to specifically disliking others).

The US is decidedly more open, they care a lot less where you come from and have more aggressive policies and actions at least in some places. Partially driven by ideology, partly just be greed (i.e. aggressively want the best talent), partly because there is less of a rooted culture.

France is very French. California doesn't have an established culture. There's no such thing as a 'Californian' by culture, just residence. If you grow up in france for 30 years, you spend the rest of your life saying "I'm French" because culturally, you are. But if you grow up in Cali and move to Florida, you don't go around saying "I'm Californian". Though you might say "From California" but that has a different meaning. Cali is more or less just a 'place'. Obviously it has hints of culture and obvious not everyone is treated 'equally' but it's fairly open.

Academia on the whole is generally more open I'd say but still, all the other things, i.e. grants, awards, tenure, etc. are going to be different.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#75

Post by forbiddenvoid »

Test0129 wrote: post #10

> Combined with sorting dynamics that concentrated talent and resources at some schools—and the emergence of tenure—this enhanced research performance. Something tells me this is only part of the story. Yes, after several wars we took in scientists who subsequently brought new ideas, improved teaching, etc to the country. But this ignores the biggest factor: US universities have tremendous endowments [1]. Having depl…

Saw the title and was immediately confused about why the answer to this question isn't just money. Turns out it is. US universities are benefited by subsidies from the US government and large grants from the private sector. Much of that capital is a direct result of the advantage gained by both US colonial interests abroad and by the US not suffering the infrastructure damage most of the rest of the wealthy world experienced as a result of WWII.

Edited to add: the brain drain from Europe to the US during WWII is also a factor. We ended up with a disproportionate number of foreign scientists during that period as well.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#76

Post by shimonabi »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #23

Europe in it's infinite wisdom decided to self immolate in two world wars. When the smoke cleared only the US was left standing. It took 30 years for European countries to get back prosperity and some of them never did.

Well, the wars before that caused the whole science thing to happen in the first place because of military usfulness.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#77

Post by inglor_cz »

asabjorn wrote: post #72
anonporridge wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the scale of nepotism meritocracy, the US is probably much closer to meritocracy than most human societies have been. Are there examples of societies who have done meritocracy better, from which we can take ideas to improve our own system?

Do you think this remains true with DIE and affirmative action being implemented in all major employers, universities and institutions? It is not fashionable to point to the unmeritocratic treatment of Asians and white males, so I guess I will point out the emperors nakedness. Hiring people of all backgrounds that agree with a forced marxist outcome (diversity), firing people dissenting to Marxist forced outcome or s…

Your comment is unpopular, judging from the downvotes, but it is still thoughtful and should be debated, not simply downvoted. But you are touching topics that come close to religious faith for some folks, and in an irreverent way.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#78

Post by SllX »

dcolkitt wrote: post #58
Test0129 wrote: post #10

> Combined with sorting dynamics that concentrated talent and resources at some schools—and the emergence of tenure—this enhanced research performance. Something tells me this is only part of the story. Yes, after several wars we took in scientists who subsequently brought new ideas, improved teaching, etc to the country. But this ignores the biggest factor: US universities have tremendous endowments [1]. Having depl…

These are all good points. But what's interesting is that very similar things could also be said about the US healthcare system . And yet unlike American universities, it's not clear that American hospitals or healthcare is worldclass.

Where we fall down is on our convoluted system of billing and opaque pricing. The actual care in my experience is top notch.

To give you an idea, I can pay $60 for a FaceTime call with an urgent care clinic. That exact same call is billed to my insurance for $200 or 333.3334% more than what I would pay. An inhaler is priced at $70 at my local pharmacy, but can be had for $15 with a co-pay (God knows what they’re billing insurance for the “rest”) or $12 without insurance and just a coupon I picked up from a doctor rendering one of the “benefits” of my insurance moot. I’m pretty sure the inhaler itself can’t be more than a dollar to manufacture, but whatever, the pharmacist has to get paid, right?

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#79

Post by streptomycin »

juve1996 wrote: post #73
streptomycin wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but generally the worst school districts are the ones that get the most money, although the exact way money is distributed varies by region. For instance, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_district describes how NJ gives tons of money to schools in poor areas, although it does not seem to have produced any better educational outcomes.

Does "get the most money" equate to "has the most money?"

Not sure what the difference is. But it does seem that no matter how much money you throw at a problem with no measurable impact, there will always be people claiming just a little bit more is needed because this time something will be different and it won't be squandered.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#80

Post by inglor_cz »

kahrl wrote: post #61
Enginerrrd wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also don't live in the antithesis of a meritocracy either. Competency is usually rewarded, and rewards are pretty well correlated with competency. There's plenty of room in the tails one can cite to justifyany opinion on the matter, but on average I think we're far more meritocratic than not.

Capital is usually rewarded, and rewards are pretty well correlated with capital.

Depends on the sort of rewards.

Saudi Arabia does not seem to be rewarding scientists or inventors and doesn't consequently get any significant scientific results at home, even though the country is obscenely rich.

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