Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS

#71

Post by AllThatGroks » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 12:55 AM UTC

WoodenChair wrote: post #9

It's really not an impressive showing for SwiftUI. 4 iterations later and after being told it's "the future" in unequivocal terms, it's still at 12% (and only like 3% without any AppKit combined (last chart)). It's not dogfooded for any productivity apps. For Ventura, rewriting "Font Book, System Settings, and Tips" is not exactly confidence inducing. If they rewrote Pages or Final Cut Pro, that would wake people up.…

I converted the Android App I work on to Compose with zero problems everything just worked. Everything that didn't work was my fault because I didn't grok something about how recomposition worked. I was able to convert everything in small encapsulated pieces without breaking other parts of the app.

I'm converting the iOS version of the app from UIKit app to SwiftUI and it is a nightmare. Nothing works, everything is tightly coupled, and nothing works out of the box without some hacky modification and much googling. I've also come to the conclusion that they don't use SwiftUI before releasing it.

Re: Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS

#72

Post by Nextgrid » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 1:14 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #10

rvanmil wrote: post #7

I remember making fun of Microsoft trying to combine mouse and touch in a single UI. And yet here we are, Apple doing the same thing to macOS, resulting in the same shit desktop/mouse experience that macOS has become. I understand the reasons but it seems so incredibly un-Apple to sacrifice UX for this.

As someone who literally abandoned Windows for the same reasons (during 8), macOS is still far far from sinking into those depths of depravity yet.

My worry though is that when Windows fucked up, Mac OS was a viable alternative. Now that Mac fucks up, what's the alternative? Linux has its own challenges.

Re: Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS

#73

Post by grishka » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 1:16 AM UTC

yakubin wrote: post #66

jbverschoor wrote: post #2

Yup. and basically all apps (re)created suck big time. They're just iOS ports. You're forced to do litereally everything using your mouse, and for example the Home app, it's basically useless if you want to organize/edit things. We're going to a CRUD operation world, where you have to do every edit one-by-one. And then in a few years, people will be amazed that you can save so much time because of a new "bulk editing…

I started using macOS with Big Sur (still on it) and I don't understand why Apple would remove the ability to select buttons in dialog windows with the keyboard. I've googled it and it seems you used to be able to do that on macOS, but when I follow the instructions on Big Sur, I can't move the selection from the button active by default to the other one (e.g. "Ok" vs "Cancel"). That means my right hand is making run…

The enter key activates the blue (default) button, the spacebar activates the one with the focus ring around it. You can move the focus ring with tab.

Re: Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS

#74

Post by WoodenChair » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 1:17 AM UTC

AllThatGroks wrote: post #71

WoodenChair wrote: post #9

It's really not an impressive showing for SwiftUI. 4 iterations later and after being told it's "the future" in unequivocal terms, it's still at 12% (and only like 3% without any AppKit combined (last chart)). It's not dogfooded for any productivity apps. For Ventura, rewriting "Font Book, System Settings, and Tips" is not exactly confidence inducing. If they rewrote Pages or Final Cut Pro, that would wake people up.…

I converted the Android App I work on to Compose with zero problems everything just worked. Everything that didn't work was my fault because I didn't grok something about how recomposition worked. I was able to convert everything in small encapsulated pieces without breaking other parts of the app. I'm converting the iOS version of the app from UIKit app to SwiftUI and it is a nightmare. Nothing works, everything is…

So why are you doing it? Why not just leave it UIKit. Is it just a learning experience? Clearly, UIKit is not going anywhere for a LONG time, so I don't feel compelled to update old code.

Re: Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS

#75

Post by grishka » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 1:19 AM UTC

rvanmil wrote: post #7

I remember making fun of Microsoft trying to combine mouse and touch in a single UI. And yet here we are, Apple doing the same thing to macOS, resulting in the same shit desktop/mouse experience that macOS has become. I understand the reasons but it seems so incredibly un-Apple to sacrifice UX for this.

Microsoft at least made a semblance of sense because some Windows laptops have touchscreens and some even can be turned inside out into tablets. They wanted to embrace those hardware capabilities but did so at the expense of the remaining 95% of their users.

There are no macs with touchscreens and no plans to release any from what I gather — that's what iPad is for, after all.

Re: Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS

#76

Post by grishka » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 1:19 AM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #30

rvanmil wrote: post #7

I remember making fun of Microsoft trying to combine mouse and touch in a single UI. And yet here we are, Apple doing the same thing to macOS, resulting in the same shit desktop/mouse experience that macOS has become. I understand the reasons but it seems so incredibly un-Apple to sacrifice UX for this.

Eh, it's not that crazy unless they put a touchscreen on MacBooks.

Touchscreen laptops are an abomination and should have never been invented in the first place.

Re: Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS

#77

Post by mch82 » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 1:32 AM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #63

mch82 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, do you use a lot of windows? I’ve used a Mac my whole life. Recently, I’m using 4-finger swipe to switch full screen apps. I’m also choosing the “snap” layouts over dragging windows around. It’s useful to have 2 folders on screen to be able to move files between them, but I don’t stack windows like I used to.

> do you use a lot of windows? I do, yeah. Though I stopped using windows for work and just use it daily for gaming or just general reading/browsing/minor task machine. Occasionally I would write a bit of code on it, maybe a small python script or some in-browser debugging, but that's about it. For work, audio/music recording related stuff, coding side projects, and all other sort of personal usage, it is macOS. I al…

Actually, I was wondering if you drag, resize, or organize desktop windows (https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline...) to do things that aren’t possible on iOS.

Though, I also use Windows for gaming, mostly Rocket League :-)

Re: Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS

#78

Post by andrekandre » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 1:39 AM UTC

AllThatGroks wrote: post #71

WoodenChair wrote: post #9

It's really not an impressive showing for SwiftUI. 4 iterations later and after being told it's "the future" in unequivocal terms, it's still at 12% (and only like 3% without any AppKit combined (last chart)). It's not dogfooded for any productivity apps. For Ventura, rewriting "Font Book, System Settings, and Tips" is not exactly confidence inducing. If they rewrote Pages or Final Cut Pro, that would wake people up.…

I converted the Android App I work on to Compose with zero problems everything just worked. Everything that didn't work was my fault because I didn't grok something about how recomposition worked. I was able to convert everything in small encapsulated pieces without breaking other parts of the app. I'm converting the iOS version of the app from UIKit app to SwiftUI and it is a nightmare. Nothing works, everything is…

  > everything is tightly coupled

just curious, but what do you mean specifically?

Re: Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS

#79

Post by adrr » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 1:42 AM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #30

rvanmil wrote: post #7

I remember making fun of Microsoft trying to combine mouse and touch in a single UI. And yet here we are, Apple doing the same thing to macOS, resulting in the same shit desktop/mouse experience that macOS has become. I understand the reasons but it seems so incredibly un-Apple to sacrifice UX for this.

Eh, it's not that crazy unless they put a touchscreen on MacBooks.

iPad Pro is what they are targeting. Try to get more desktop apps.

Re: Apple’s Use of AppKit, Mac Catalyst and SwiftUI in macOS

#80

Post by andrekandre » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 1:47 AM UTC

imwillofficial wrote: post #19

carlycue wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, that’s where things stand today, but the Mac is part of Apples brand. They screw it up enough and iPhone won’t win on its strengths anymore. Design and execution. It used to be but not anymore. The iPhone is Apple's most important product and the majority of iPhone users aren't interested in the Mac.

Let’s do a thought experiment. If the Mac disappeared today in a puff of smoke, would that result in less iPhones sold, a less prestigious brand, or maybe an improvement? An additional argument is that companies rarely have one major product. Apple is big enough to execute well on several synergistic fronts. $30b is an awesome business all on its own, and compliments, not detracts from, the iPhone brand. Apple should…

  > $30b is an awesome business all on its own, and compliments, not detracts from, the iPhone brand.

yep, and just because the ratio of revenue is heavily in favor of iphone, there is no reason to subsume (subvert?) the mac ui into its paradigm... the worse ux could result in that 30bn shrinking, wherein they will just devote more resources to consolidation, again accelerating the mac's decline.... its a potential negative spiral if i ever saw one...