Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 114 posts

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#71

Post by josephcsible »

tailrecursion wrote: post #70
mlyle wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Schoolchildren would have to stop using any service that doesn't have a block-anonymous setting, or, accept that the school will ignore any complaints about anonymous messages. Schools already heavily discourage Discord use, but most students use it. Most students aren't bullied, either, so the bullied students complying only further isolates them. It's pretty intrinsically anonymous, too. Accounts need to have a p…

I agree that accounts on Discord, Instagram, Whatsapp are effectively anonymous and students are not likely to stop using them. As you indicate, the police could follow the required phone number but not the school. Yes, your scenario is one I hadn't considered. I don't know what a good resolution is there; I would suggest that DEF is not necessarily the bad guy. Maybe. But not necessarily. This one is also difficult…

> It's sad but I think it's often better for the child to solve the problem himself.

In today's "zero-tolerance" world, that usually leads to the victim getting in at least as much trouble as the bully does.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#72

Post by em-bee »

mlyle wrote: post #64
Waterluvian wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. It’s indeed weird that there’s some delineation line between your school permanent record and your life permanent record.

> It’s indeed weird that there’s some delineation line between your school permanent record and your life permanent record. It's a good thing. Student mental health is pretty bad these days. Part of it is that everything is so high stakes: society tells kids any little slip up-- academic or behavioral-- will affect them forever. It's good that ordinary missteps can go away.

in germany only severe crimes get on the permanent record. everything else will be removed after a few years. there is a separate record for youth crimes which is not included in your criminal record and is removed at age 24 if you didn't commit a severe crime.

whether something happens inside or outside school should have no bearing on how it is treated. when it comes to messaging, a warrant should be needed either way.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#73

Post by mlyle »

politician wrote: post #69
mlyle wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about the things that happen between children outside their homes, like at a neighborhood park? I absolutely think it's relevant whether student A punched student B in the face at the park yesterday, when they're dealing with a dispute where student A seems to have done something that's in a grey area to student B. "Playful" jostling that student B doesn't appreciate is very different with the context of the p…

> Of course, the problem schools face is that objective facts about what's happened between students-- in or out of school-- are frequently not known. That's right, but the solution is not to empower schools to operate their own investigation departments so that they can enforce their own laws on our children through a governance system best described as a Medieval lordship. There must be limits on their authority. F…

> For children involved in bullying relationships, schools ought to refer these cases to the State.

The legal system is a really blunt tool to deal with things like this, and doesn't have the capacity to investigate problems like this either.

And we're pretty clearly not just talking about "violent" bullies, but often those with behavior that may be just barely on the side of legality. But not all legal behavior is (or should be) tolerated in a school community.

> There must be limits on their authority.

There are. The Fourth Amendment still applies, but courts have chosen a slightly more permissive standard for school administrators than police officers in view of in loco parentis and the needs of the school environment.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#74

Post by mlyle »

em-bee wrote: post #72
mlyle wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s indeed weird that there’s some delineation line between your school permanent record and your life permanent record. It's a good thing. Student mental health is pretty bad these days. Part of it is that everything is so high stakes: society tells kids any little slip up-- academic or behavioral-- will affect them forever. It's good that ordinary missteps can go away.

in germany only severe crimes get on the permanent record. everything else will be removed after a few years. there is a separate record for youth crimes which is not included in your criminal record and is removed at age 24 if you didn't commit a severe crime. whether something happens inside or outside school should have no bearing on how it is treated. when it comes to messaging, a warrant should be needed either…

> in germany only severe crimes get on the permanent record. everything else will be removed after a few years. there is a separate record for youth crimes which is not included in your criminal record and is removed at age 24 if you didn't commit a severe crime.

This is true of most states, though the fact that your juvenile record was sealed and expunged may itself be a record.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#75

Post by politician »

mlyle wrote: post #73
politician wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, the problem schools face is that objective facts about what's happened between students-- in or out of school-- are frequently not known. That's right, but the solution is not to empower schools to operate their own investigation departments so that they can enforce their own laws on our children through a governance system best described as a Medieval lordship. There must be limits on their authority. F…

> For children involved in bullying relationships, schools ought to refer these cases to the State. The legal system is a really blunt tool to deal with things like this, and doesn't have the capacity to investigate problems like this either. And we're pretty clearly not just talking about "violent" bullies, but often those with behavior that may be just barely on the side of legality. But not all legal behavior is (…

> There are. The Fourth Amendment still applies, but courts have chosen a slightly more permissive standard for school administrators than police officers in view of in loco parentis and the needs of the school environment.

School officials can be representatives of the State in one moment and in loco parentis in the next. Operating as a chimera is not an appropriate or respectful way to deal with anyone, especially children. It's telling that the principal use case of in loco parentis is schools - maybe it's time for that to end universally as it ended in higher education.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#76

Post by mlyle »

politician wrote: post #75
mlyle wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For children involved in bullying relationships, schools ought to refer these cases to the State. The legal system is a really blunt tool to deal with things like this, and doesn't have the capacity to investigate problems like this either. And we're pretty clearly not just talking about "violent" bullies, but often those with behavior that may be just barely on the side of legality. But not all legal behavior is (…

> There are. The Fourth Amendment still applies, but courts have chosen a slightly more permissive standard for school administrators than police officers in view of in loco parentis and the needs of the school environment. School officials can be representatives of the State in one moment and in loco parentis in the next. Operating as a chimera is not an appropriate or respectful way to deal with anyone, especially…

> It's telling that the principal use case of in loco parentis is schools - maybe it's time for that to end universally as it ended in higher education.

You're not really proposing anything in its stead, though, as far as workable systems of schooling.

Schools owe it to their charges to make it a safe place for students to be and learn: after all, they're legally compelled to be there and most parents do not have other options. I believe understanding the totality of circumstances facing kids, including things that didn't happen at school, to the best of their ability, is necessary to make this work.

I suspect you might have some views that the student should "tough it out" or "solve the problem themselves". Adolescents do not have workable ways to deal with pseudo-anonymous abuse crossing over into environments they can't escape. Even adults would suffer badly under these pressures. Yes, the legal system is an option but it's not very accessible to students and not well-suited to address these kinds of problems.

I'm a teacher at a small idyllic private school. (view don't represent employer's). We have the benefit of a mostly supportive parental community and selective admissions. Today's era for youth is a less violent and more understanding one than when I grew up. Even so, the pressures and abuses from 24/7 engagement with peers through social media are huge. It's not surprising the outcomes overall in our society are trending bad.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#77

Post by willcipriano »

mlyle wrote: post #42
vorpalhex wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they search my mobile device, they will deal with police and the court system. Whether the phone is in my posession or my kids is irrelevant.

As the document shows, many instances of schools searching students' mobile devices without a warrant have been shown to be constitutional in appellate courts.

> been shown to be constitutional in appellate courts.

So has civil asset forfeiture but that doesn't actually make it constitutional.

When a agent of the government wants to search mine or the property of my child, I'm going to make them get a warrant every time. I have nothing to hide, but it's not worth the risk of something being misunderstood or misinterpreted and ending up with consequences from this fishing expedition. They can "particularly describe the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized" along with their probable cause on the outset or not search at all. Terrorism isn't a sufficient reason to throw out the constitution, it's laughable to suggest name calling is.

My kid isn't old enough yet but stuff like this, monitoring software on laptop used for school (but purchased by parents) pushes me towards homeschooling.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#78

Post by mlyle »

UIUC_06 wrote: post #45

Over and above hypotheticals about "they know each other from school" or "it affects the learning environment": School administrations should have less power than they have now, rather than more. If you let them be responsible for kids' actions outside of school, nothing good will come of it. They're not competent to take on that job.

If you make them ignore everything happening outside school between students that have to work together at school, nothing good will come of it, either.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#79

Post by candiodari »

mlyle wrote: post #60
tomrod wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extortion: the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats. If I squint my eyes I can sort of see what you're getting at. But on the flip side, this aunt also called the parent to make sure their duty was done. So it would be hard to claim "discipline your child, please, else I will need to file a police report to stop your child's harassment" is extortion.

I agree this is probably not extortion, but people step close to this line and have been surprised by prosecution or litigation. e.g. pay for the damages or I'm going to the police...

Even if you somehow agree with this, you must realise it won’t work. Good luck convincing the police, the prosecution or a judge that use of the justice system is extortion ...

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#80

Post by mlyle »

willcipriano wrote: post #77
mlyle wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the document shows, many instances of schools searching students' mobile devices without a warrant have been shown to be constitutional in appellate courts.

> been shown to be constitutional in appellate courts. So has civil asset forfeiture but that doesn't actually make it constitutional. When a agent of the government wants to search mine or the property of my child, I'm going to make them get a warrant every time. I have nothing to hide, but it's not worth the risk of something being misunderstood or misinterpreted and ending up with consequences from this fishing ex…

> So has civil asset forfeiture but that doesn't actually make it constitutional.

I don't feel like semantic arguments. If an agent of the state engages in behavior that appellate courts have declared to be legal, you are unlikely to get redress by reporting this act to the police.

Post reply on HN