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The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

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Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#71
You can debate syntax forever but the semantic web will never rise without the proper incentives. Not only is there no incentive for industry to participate in it, there's in fact an anti-incentive to do so.

Say you've build a weather app/website. Being a good citizen, you publish "weatherevent" objects. Now anybody can consume this feed, remix it, aggregate, run some AI on it, new visualizations, whichever. A great thing for the world.

That's not how the world works. Your app is now obsolete. Anybody, typically somebody with more resources than you, will simply take that data and out-compete you, in ways fair on unfair (gaming ranking). You may conclude that this is good at the macro level, but surely the app owner disagrees on the micro level.

Say you're one of those foodies, writing recipes online with the typical irrelevant life story attached. The reason they do this is to gain relevance in Google (which is easily misled by lots of fluffy text), which creates traffic, which monetizes the ads.

Asking these foodies instead to write semantic recipe objects destroys the entire model. Somebody will build an app to scrape the recipes and that seals the fate of the foodie. No monetization therefore they'll stop producing the data.

In commercial settings, the idea that data has zero value and is therefore to be freely and openly shared is incredibly naive. You can't expect any entity to actively work against their own self-interest, even less so when it's existential.

As the author describes, even in the academic world, supposedly free of commercial pressure, there's no incentive or even an anti-incentive. People rather publish lots of papers. Doing things properly means less papers, so punishment.

Like I said, incentives. The incentive for contributing to the semantic web is far below zero.

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#72
On our podcast, The Technium, we covered Semantic Web as a retro-future episode [0]. It was a neat trip back to the early 2000s. It wasn't a bad idea, pre se, but it depended on humans doing-the-right-thing for markup and the assumption that classifying things are easy. Turns out neither are true. In addition, the complexity of the spec really didn't help those that wanted to adopt its practices. However, there are bits and pieces of good ideas in there, and some of it lives on in the web today. Just have to dig a little to see them. Metadata on websites for fb/twitter/google cards, RDF triples for database storage in Datomic, and knowledge base powered searches all come to mind.

[0] https://youtu.be/bjn5jSemPws

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#73
post #63

The answer to almost any question beginning with "why don't they" (or why didn't they), is almost always "money". Producing, aggregating, storing, or otherwise adding value to information costs money. Operating the internet costs money. Providing access to data costs money. People are lazy. Businesses on the internet have learned that they can extract more money from this vast pool of lazy people by presenting inform…

+1 - The surest path to having someone copy your data and monetize it better than you is to present it in semantically sound ways.

Imagine a stock site that made real time prices readily available in a common format! Oh, it exists, but you have to pay for it...

And you don't need semantics for that, you want something more like Swagger.

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#74
post #17

Seems to miss the obvious double whammy: 1) Because it burdens producers to no obvious benefit, a problem forever 2) Because progress over time in language processing makes it less and less necessary

Natural language processing (NLP) may indeed understand the unstructured text, then according to (2), the "Semantic Web" is not needed, except for perhaps caching NLP outputs in machine-readable form.

(1) is more fundamental: a lot of value-add annotation (in RDF or other forms) would be valuable, but because there is work involved those that have it don't give it away for free. This part was not sufficiently addressed in the OP: the Incentive Problem. Either there needs to be a way how people pay for the value-add metadata, or there has to be another benefit for the provider why they would give it away. Most technical articles focus on the format, or on some specific ontologies (typically without an application).

A third issue is trust. In Berners-Lee's original paper, trust is shown as an extra box, suggesting it is a component. That's a grave misunderstanding: trust is a property of the whole system/ecosystem; you can't just take a prototype and say "now let's add a trust module to it!" In the absence of trust guarantees, who ensures that the metadata that does exist is correct? It may just be spam (annotation spam may be the counterpart of Web spam in the unstructured world).

No Semantic Web until the Incentive Problem and the Trust Problem are solved.

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#75
Clay Shirky nailed in in 2003:

https://deathray.us/no_crawl/others/semantic-web.html

I'll just excerpt the conclusion:

``` The systems that have succeeded at scale have made simple implementation the core virtue, up the stack from Ethernet over Token Ring to the web over gopher and WAIS. The most widely adopted digital descriptor in history, the URL, regards semantics as a side conversation between consenting adults, and makes no requirements in this regard whatsoever: sports.yahoo.com/nfl/ is a valid URL, but so is 12.0.0.1/ftrjjk.ppq. The fact that a URL itself doesn’t have to mean anything is essential – the Web succeeded in part because it does not try to make any assertions about the meaning of the documents it contained, only about their location.

There is a list of technologies that are actually political philosophy masquerading as code, a list that includes Xanadu, Freenet, and now the Semantic Web. The Semantic Web’s philosophical argument – the world should make more sense than it does – is hard to argue with. The Semantic Web, with its neat ontologies and its syllogistic logic, is a nice vision. However, like many visions that project future benefits but ignore present costs, it requires too much coordination and too much energy to effect in the real world, where deductive logic is less effective and shared worldview is harder to create than we often want to admit.

Much of the proposed value of the Semantic Web is coming, but it is not coming because of the Semantic Web. The amount of meta-data we generate is increasing dramatically, and it is being exposed for consumption by machines as well as, or instead of, people. But it is being designed a bit at a time, out of self-interest and without regard for global ontology. It is also being adopted piecemeal, and it will bring with it with all the incompatibilities and complexities that implies. There are significant disadvantages to this process relative to the shining vision of the Semantic Web, but the big advantage of this bottom-up design and adoption is that it is actually working now. ```

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#76
keeping it short because on phone.

working for a company, 100 % semantic web, integrating many, many parties for many years now, all of it rdf.

- you get used to turtle. one file can describe your db and be ingested as such. handy. - interoperability is really possible. (distributed apps) - hardest part is getting everyone to agree on the model, but often these discussions is more about resolving ambuigties surrounding the business than about translating it to model. (it gets things sharp) - agree on a minimum model, open world means you can extend in your app - don't overthink your owl descriptions

- no, please no reasoners. data is never perfect.

- tooling is there - triple stores are not the fastest

pls, not another standard to fix the semantic web. Everything is there. More maturity in tooling might be welcome, but this a function of the number people using it.

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#77
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are people editing Wikipedia and Wikidata? What would it bring you if your products were globally linked to that knowledge graph and Google's machines would understand that metadata from the tiny JSON-LD snippet on each page? The tools are here already, the tech is evolving still, but the knowledge graph concept is going to affect web shop owners too soon enough.

It’s unclear to me at this point why people are contributing to Wikipedia and certainly wikidata, but they’re getting something out of it (perhaps notoriety), and a lot probably has to do with contributing to the greater good. It’s all non profit. The rest of the web is unlike these stand out projects. Meanwhile, why would say Mouser or Airbnb pay someone to markup their docs? WebMD? Clearly nothing has been compelli…

They do it because it benefits them too. OpenStreetMaps links with WD, GLAMs link with WD, journals/ORCIDs link with WD, all sorts of other data archives link with WD. Whoever is not linking with may see a crawler pass by to collect license-free facts.

Also, I just checked: WebMD is using a ton of embedded RDF on each page. They understand SEO well as you said :)

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#79

While I love the semantic web I see two major issues with it: 1. Standardization in regards of (globally) unique identifiers and ontologies. Most things un the semantic web have multiple identifiers and, based on personal preferences, attributes linked to different ontologies. There's several projects that try to gather data for the same thing from various ontologies, but sometimes the same attributes have differing…

Many of the biggest companies in world are using semweb tech: http://sparql.club

Open linked-data has been growing very fast over the last few years. Many governments are now demanding LD from their executive/subsidized organizations. These data stores are then made accessible using REST and/or SPARQL.

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#80
There are deeper issues with semantic web.

Look at the EDIFACT. Huge standardization effort, but it was still not possible to automate system to system communication, because ultimately you need to rely on some words, and words are flexible. I was working with multiple companies that understood "through-invoicing" in EDIFACT differently, but the differences were so subtle they needed a third party to clarify those differences.

Lately, in various sectors, such as finance, there are commercially available reference data models. These are extremely complex, because they need to cover all the possible alternatives businesses might have, in various countries. Just to gain basic understanding of such a model is a huge effort. To have people to label things properly would probably involve learning a similar system.

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