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Essential Climbing Knots

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Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#71

Post by tecleandor »

gadders wrote: post #69
beefield wrote: post #17

It's missing European Death Knot. https://www.theclimbingguy.com/european-death-knot/

There was an article on HN a while back about a particular way of tying a rope to two pins at the top of a cliff in sort of a y-shape that doubles the stresses on the rope rather than reduces it (apologies if the details are wrong - I don't climb). I wish I could find the article.

Can't search properly in mobile but it's probably related to the "american death triangle", isn't it?

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/a-closer-look-at-the-americ...

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#72

Post by robinhouston »

2mol wrote: post #66
endgame wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a loop knot made using a figure-8, then retracing the knot with the tail. Climbers use it where sailors would tend to use a bowline. I've heard various reasons why: "it's easier to teach people in the gym", "it's harder to get wrong", "the dynamic ropes climbers use put bowlines at risk of capsizing".

Nobody does a bowline, that's insane because you can't ring-load (cross-load) it. [0] Europeans sometimes do the double bowline (traced), but the naming is ambiguous in english, so you have to google double bowline on a bight. Americans used to do yosemite bowlines, but that fell out of fashion because figure eight (safe and foolproof) and double bowline (safe, trivial to untie after hefty lead falls) cover literally…

A bowline with stopper is a pretty common climbing knot in the UK [0]. I don't have the expertise to weigh into any debates about how safe it is, but I've seen a lot of people use it without incident, and there's no question it's easier to untie than a rethreaded figure-eight.

[0] https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/how_to_tie_in_to_...

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#73

Post by apinstein »

defrost wrote: post #5
steve_gh wrote: post #2

Hmm. A few thoughts. There are alternatives to the Prussik such as the Klemheist which don't jam as badly. I wouldn't use a ring bend - the double fisherman's is superior for tying rope or cord ends together to create a sling. And I definitely wouldn't use either a ring bend or a double fisherman's to link ropes for abseil. An overhand tied in both ropes (with a 50cm tail) -aka the EDK or European Death Knot is way s…

Fair point re: the Klemheist although the Prussik serves well enough. For my part I wouldn't use a figure 8 in a bight to get a loop in the middle of a lonf rope that's going to take load - the butterfly knot is far superior.

IIRC the 8 on a bight is best for load parallel to the rope, and the butterfly best for load perpendicular to the rope. The butterfly is really fun to tie though :)

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#74

Post by PostOnce »

The Ashley Book of Knots became public domain a few years ago (70 years after Ashley died) and you should absolutely read it or at least skim it here:

https://archive.org/details/TheAshleyBookOfKnots

This would have been sooner had Disney not robbed us of our own culture by purchasing whatever legislation they feel benefits them, regardless of the cost to the rest of us.

Sorry, I'm bitter, but it really is a fantastic book I wish more people could've read and expanded on sooner... Say, 50 years after Ashley died instead of 70.

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#75

Post by ezzaf »

leksak wrote: post #19
steve_gh wrote: post #2

Hmm. A few thoughts. There are alternatives to the Prussik such as the Klemheist which don't jam as badly. I wouldn't use a ring bend - the double fisherman's is superior for tying rope or cord ends together to create a sling. And I definitely wouldn't use either a ring bend or a double fisherman's to link ropes for abseil. An overhand tied in both ropes (with a 50cm tail) -aka the EDK or European Death Knot is way s…

Agreed. If anyone is curious, I recommend reading https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/rappel-knots-1 (it has helpful illustrations on why the EDK doesn't catch) And I'd also opt for a Kleimheist or Autoblock over the classic Prusik. Not sure if I think this was a good selection of essential climbing knots and the presentation was odd. For instance, I'd present the Prusik in an abseiling context. The article me…

I carry a couple of prussik loops primarily for abseil backup, but have also used it to recover from a fall off an overhang when seconding. The leader was far enough away they couldn't hear me asking to be lowered. I also couldn't reach the rock so had to ascend the rope. Prussik gets the job done.

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#76

Post by gadders »

tecleandor wrote: post #71
gadders wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an article on HN a while back about a particular way of tying a rope to two pins at the top of a cliff in sort of a y-shape that doubles the stresses on the rope rather than reduces it (apologies if the details are wrong - I don't climb). I wish I could find the article.

Can't search properly in mobile but it's probably related to the "american death triangle", isn't it? https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/a-closer-look-at-the-americ...

That's the one. Glad to see all the mis-tying isn't just blamed on Europeans :-)

I remember reading it before led me down this page of climbing mishaps (linked at bottom of page): https://www.climbing.com/skills/climbing-anchor-death-americ...

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#77

Post by trollied »

kyledrake wrote: post #26

Random comment: Securing the trace eight with a second knot is really not necessary, as it is a self tightening knot. Most climbers don't do it, my climbing safety book doesn't show it and all gyms I've been too, sans one in Vancouver WA for some reason, don't require it. Rough rule is two fists length for the tail and you're good. Another comment mentioned this too, it's much easier to untie if tied in a specific wa…

I'm UK-based - was taught to tie the 2nd knot every time, and always do. Does seem to be regional.

Re: Essential Climbing Knots

#78

Post by fenomas »

PostOnce wrote: post #74

The Ashley Book of Knots became public domain a few years ago (70 years after Ashley died) and you should absolutely read it or at least skim it here: https://archive.org/details/TheAshleyBookOfKnots This would have been sooner had Disney not robbed us of our own culture by purchasing whatever legislation they feel benefits them, regardless of the cost to the rest of us. Sorry, I'm bitter, but it really is a fantasti…

It really is an amazing book - exhaustive and technical, but there's a lot of personality in the descriptions and commentary.

A personal favorite quote:

> The topsail halyard bend is said to be a yachting hitch, but it is possible that it has never appeared outside the covers of a book. It has one more turn than the studding-sail bend and this, like the second tablespoonful of castor oil, savors of redundancy.

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