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Linux 5.19

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Re: Linux 5.19

#71

Post by manholio »

Bud wrote: post #66
manholio wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In regard to proprietary hardware, it is my assertion that Apple and Amazon are essentially making the same move: throw money they obtained by dominating their respective markets into closed hardware development that will allow them to lock into their market dominance in the future by limiting consumer choice. You might disagree but there is nothing fallacious about this line of reasoning. If you are looking for a fa…

Except we clearly see that Linus has bought Macs over and over again. Presumably because they're the best tool for the job and he likes them. And you still have failed (like everyone else) to make any real argument that Apple is somehow warring against "software liberty". Promoting your own platform doesn't amount to doing so, certainly.

Again, what Linus does and doesn't is not relevant for a discussion about morality - unless you are starting a religion centered around him as a moral model.

Fyi, the App Store license is deliberately incompatible with the GPL.

Re: Linux 5.19

#72

Post by ekianjo »

nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

> to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop.

No GPU support is a big miss though. ARM also means that you can't make every binary made for x86 out there work, even if initiatives like Box86 and Box64 help bridge the gap.

Re: Linux 5.19

#73

Post by Avamander »

okasaki wrote: post #47
nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

Don't understand what's so great about it. Pretty much every amd64 laptop works great with Linux. I've had Lenovos, Dells, Huaweis, HPs, etc. Not to mention laptops designed specifically to target Linux like the Framework laptop.

> Don't understand what's so great about it. Pretty much every amd64 laptop works great with Linux. I've had Lenovos, Dells, Huaweis, HPs, etc.

It's not amd64, it's especially not Intel. It's not fugly or fnoisy. The bar is really so low.

Re: Linux 5.19

#74

Post by pharmakom »

vbernat wrote: post #44
nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

If you take a regular Lenovo laptop, everything likely works out of the box with an upstream kernel. This quite not the case yet with Asahi Linux which does not support power management, no USB, no sound. There was a time where Apple laptops came with very good Linux support. It was the time were every bit of hardware support was present in Darwin (a 12" iBook G3 was working flawlessly with Linux for example). I thin…

> If you take a regular Lenovo laptop, everything likely works out of the box with an upstream kernel.

Never worked flawlessly in my experience.

Re: Linux 5.19

#75

Post by ZiiS »

anothernewdude wrote: post #39
ogogmad wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given this, it seems like MacBooks could easily end up becoming the laptop of choice for Linux developers in the years to come. What's the situation with traditional USB and HDMI ports? Dongles are easy to forget and easy to break, and lots of us have traditional USB devices lying around and 10-year-old TVs.

My M1 has an HDMI 2.0 port.

That isnt currently supported under linux.

Re: Linux 5.19

#76

Post by RL_Quine »

vbernat wrote: post #44
nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

If you take a regular Lenovo laptop, everything likely works out of the box with an upstream kernel. This quite not the case yet with Asahi Linux which does not support power management, no USB, no sound. There was a time where Apple laptops came with very good Linux support. It was the time were every bit of hardware support was present in Darwin (a 12" iBook G3 was working flawlessly with Linux for example). I thin…

Nonsense. The 10th gen X1 Carbon has basically nothing functional unless you are running master kernel, and even then it's not completely there. It's just an unusable paperweight at the moment, the OLED screen is pretty though.

Re: Linux 5.19

#77

Post by mort96 »

manholio wrote: post #31
nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

> MacBooks could easily end up becoming the laptop of choice for Linux developers That is, if they want to subsidize with their own wallets the dominance of consumer-hostile computing that open source was created to avert. Except for development such as this here, which aims at liberating users from a closed platform, I would have a philosophical problem to buy such hardware purely for my convenience. Let's not fool…

Eh, Apple is merely not documenting their M1/M2 hardware as much as they should be; nothing is intentionally locked down in any way, their bootloader explicitly and intentionally supports booting alternative OSes, nothing requires being signed by Apple, etc.

Compare that to what's going on in the non-Mac world, with Pluton and SecureBoot stuff, where hardware is being cryptographically locked down. Or compare it to nvidia, who is intentionally making it impossible to make a good FOSS driver. Yet people have no problems buying thinkpads from Lenovo or nvidia cards from System76.

I'll take "undocumented hardware which needs to be reverse engineered, but once that's done we have a great driver and stuff just works" over "undocumented hardware which refuses to run unsigned software and the user can't install their own signing key" any day.

Re: Linux 5.19

#78

Post by Twisell »

hnlmorg wrote: post #51
sgjohnson wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Mac keyboard layout is US-like This is absolutely false. European Mac keyboards are ISO. The labeling doesn’t matter, as rolling your own layout is trivial.

Being ISO doesn't mean it's not "US-like". The UK layout, for example, does differ considerably between Macs and IBM, with the UK Mac layout being closer to a US layout than a UK IBM layout (examples posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304113 ). I couldn't give a crap if the UK Mac layout is an ISO standard or not because that doesn't magically change the way I use a keyboard. Furthermore I made the e…

Well actually you are both partially right and wrong.

The French Apple layout is closer to the Windows layout than the Mac US version. But it is quite divergent from both US layout and french windows because it included localized typographic enhancements inherited from the 1980's. They basically localized differently on Windows and MacOs.

There is another ISO international flavor of the Apple Keyboard that look closer to the US version but it never took traction in french market. I guess that even if switching from Win/Mac french layout require some time to rewire muscle memory it's still easier than to to opt for international layout.

For instance on both Win/Mac fr by default numbered keys pad require shift to produce number while by default they are used for accentuations.

PS: I have a mechanical Mac Intl ISO keyboard because I sometimes switch to US, but when writing in FR I still as of today use french layout using muscle memory

What is actually ashaming from Apple is that oftentimes some dev oriented shortcuts (like Cmd + Shift + Period) have never been properly localized in macOS which is why using Intl keyboard help in some contexts (it fail because shift is already required to produce "Period" in classical french layout)

Re: Linux 5.19

#79

Post by Loic »

pharmakom wrote: post #74
vbernat wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take a regular Lenovo laptop, everything likely works out of the box with an upstream kernel. This quite not the case yet with Asahi Linux which does not support power management, no USB, no sound. There was a time where Apple laptops came with very good Linux support. It was the time were every bit of hardware support was present in Darwin (a 12" iBook G3 was working flawlessly with Linux for example). I thin…

> If you take a regular Lenovo laptop, everything likely works out of the box with an upstream kernel. Never worked flawlessly in my experience.

I suppose it depends on your Lenovo series.

I have been using exclusively T and X laptop for the past 20+ years and it always worked perfectly. There was a time where the battery life was better with Windows, but maybe only 2 or 3 years "in-between". Nowadays, the hardware support is for me a non issue.

Re: Linux 5.19

#80

Post by mort96 »

hnlmorg wrote: post #20
dncornholio wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple keyboards are the same as Windows, they just have different labels. The ALT key is called "option". CTRL is "control" and the windows key is "command".

Lots more different than that: + Windows has the Windows key (which Linux called "super") + Windows also has the context menu key, which I think it pretty useless to be honest but others might get value from that + The Mac keyboard layout is US-like, even on European models. Which means a bunch of keys are in different places from their European IBM counterparts (like @ and "). The # and / keys I find particularly ha…

Every Norwegian Mac laptop keyboard has been physically identical to every Norwegian PC laptop keyboard I've used, with the exception of the label changes and the missing context menu key.

And Mac keyboards have the Windows key, they just call it "command" instead of "Windows" or "super" but it's in the same place.

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