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On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

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Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#71

Post by ghaff »

sonofhans wrote: post #15

This indeed is a lovely book, one of my very favorites, and one of the most influential science fiction novels written. Maybe only Vonnegut was able to match the combination of grimness and humor. Walter M Miller Jr was a Catholic, and it helps to see the book through that particular blend of hopeless original sin and joyful redemption. He, and many of his characters, believed in both. It's a sensitive portrayal of p…

When I put together a favorite short stories list in SF, I cheated a bit by making "Fiat Homo" (which is the first part of the re-worked novel) one of them. But it's one of the great books.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#72

Post by sweettea »

shusaku wrote: post #54
sonofhans wrote: post #15

This indeed is a lovely book, one of my very favorites, and one of the most influential science fiction novels written. Maybe only Vonnegut was able to match the combination of grimness and humor. Walter M Miller Jr was a Catholic, and it helps to see the book through that particular blend of hopeless original sin and joyful redemption. He, and many of his characters, believed in both. It's a sensitive portrayal of p…

> Walter M Miller Jr was a Catholic On that note, I couldn’t help but read the book as a critique of the Protestant reformation.

Indeed,for basically this reason the book was a large influence in my conversion to Catholicism, viewing it as more able to keep knowledge preserved than the Reformed Protestantism of my upbringing.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#73

Post by thfuran »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #59
xoxxala wrote: post #26

In the early 90s, I read all of the Hugo winners at the time. A Canticle for Leibowitz was one of my favorites. A few years later, it was one of the three major influences we used when making the original Fallout (along with Road Warrior and City of Lost Children).

It's strange, you rarely hear it mentioned in the same breath as other post-apocalyptic literature like A Boy and His Dog or I Am Legend . I was only made aware of it while reading an article about the making of Fallout. So, thanks for the indirect recommendation!

>It's strange, you rarely hear it mentioned in the same breath as other post-apocalyptic literature like A Boy and His Dog or I Am Legend.

Only because I rarely hear either of those mentioned at all, unlike Canticle.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#74

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ilamont wrote: post #12

But we didn’t blow ourselves back to the stone age in the 50s and 60s. This fate turned out to be not quite as inevitable as “A Canticle” would seem to suggest. Yet evidence pointing to this outcome was all around us during the Cold War, right up to the late 1980s. Development of new and more potent weapons. Serious accidents or near accidents - one crazy one I remember hearing about was one side almost launching a r…

In 1983, I was watching TV after my parents had gone off to bed. The Emergency Warning System came on, and I said "Hey, it's the Emergency Warning System!" I have never seen my father move that fast. That's the best measure I have of how deep the fear of nuclear war was.

(It turned out to be a dam failure caused by flooding, and they were trying to warn everyone downstream to get out now. Nothing to do with nuclear war.)

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#75

Post by mherdeg »

sonofhans wrote: post #15

This indeed is a lovely book, one of my very favorites, and one of the most influential science fiction novels written. Maybe only Vonnegut was able to match the combination of grimness and humor. Walter M Miller Jr was a Catholic, and it helps to see the book through that particular blend of hopeless original sin and joyful redemption. He, and many of his characters, believed in both. It's a sensitive portrayal of p…

It's been a while but "A Canticle For Leibowitz" is one of my sf favorites and one I revisit every few years.

I don't share the view of this post's author that Miller was saying nuclear holocaust is an inevitable result of the human condition.

Rather, I see Canticle as the Catholic interpretation of the contemporary American cultural belief that fiery nuclear war was coming soon -- the gestalt embodied in, say, Tom Lehrer singing "We Will All Go Together When We Go".

Given that society feels that way, Miller asks -- how did we get there? Where might we go next? And how do we reckon with the concepts of sin and grace in this wholly alien future we seem to have suddenly entered?

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#76

Post by drewzero1 »

jboggan wrote: post #58
xoxxala wrote: post #26

In the early 90s, I read all of the Hugo winners at the time. A Canticle for Leibowitz was one of my favorites. A few years later, it was one of the three major influences we used when making the original Fallout (along with Road Warrior and City of Lost Children).

That's amazing, thank you for creating that. Some of my favorite parts of the Fallout series were the little slices of frozen catastrophe hidden off in corners, piles of bones and old clothing and a suitcase full of items that told half a story. I read that book after I had played Fallout and it felt so familiar because of it.

I've been reading it recently for the first time and it didn't quite click that it was an influence on Fallout, but it makes a lot of sense. I realize I've been kind of imagining scenes from FO3 while reading. (Though I understand we're talking about Fallout 1 and 2 here, and the further games were made by different people.)

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#77

Post by gen220 »

Read this book for the first time a couple years ago (before COVID). My memory of it is admittedly hazy, but I recall it putting me in a pretty gloomy place, emotionally.

The premise of the book is that technological progress coupled with original sin means humanity is doomed to endlessly repeat genocide against itself and the Earth.

In other words, we have this hardware-level bug that bubbles to the surface every couple of generations, and the undercurrent of technological progress means that each time it pops there's more technology to put to work against the "other" (also known as "the self", in a broader context).

It's hard to look at these ingredients and not agree that the extrapolated recipe is as likely as it is disturbing.

I disagree with the author of this post, in that "kicking" is a very rational response for many people, especially today. The comfort of the author's Eden is paid for by the regrettable suffering of so many people; and they have very few political avenues express it through. Those people are entitled to kick. Wealth and comfort ought to be distributed at a higher pace that isn't so dependent on GDP growth.

I'm optimistic, I think there's enough wealth in the world to solve these problems. But the stickiness of greed around wealth means it'll take some kicking to get us there.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#78

Post by wahern »

upsidesinclude wrote: post #46
badcppdev wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chrome_Dome Crazy times. 1960 - 1968 The United States flew nuclear armed bombers to the borders of the USSR 24 hours a day. Imagine if 'insert country name' flew armed bombers to the border of 'insert western country name' every day in 2022.

Not to get you nervous, but the Russians run bombers to the airspace of Alaska all the time. US jets intercept and turn them around. It's the expensive version of the border crossings between India & Pakistan

Don't they do this more like yearly? And they don't usually breach airspace generally considered sovereign, though they might fly into airspace the target country itself believes sovereign. AFAIU, these flights are similar to the yearly runs the U.S. Navy makes through some disputed territorial waters; that is, principally intended to preserve normative freedom of movement rights, albeit in a military context obviously serving strategic security interests.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#79

Post by burnished »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #52
valj wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree - declining population is a disaster that only ends in a country becoming poor. As you allude to in your response, sub-replacement-rate fertility is what drives population decline, so declining populations are always ageing populations. The economics of ageing populations don't work for obvious reasons - as people get older they need more care and produce less, and with fewer workers to provide that care,…

I think you made an erroneous assumption. Here you say the declining birthdays are always aging populations that require more care and this is a net drag. First, care and health services do contribute to GDP and provide good income work for those providing care. Second, while the aging population is larger than the younger population who are working at first that’s just because during the elder generations birth rate…

I think you're thinking about 'old professionals' when whats under discussion is "jesus fuck you are old as dirt" people, and how the economics change when your distribution starts skewing towards that old and ineffective side.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#80

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

thfuran wrote: post #73
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange, you rarely hear it mentioned in the same breath as other post-apocalyptic literature like A Boy and His Dog or I Am Legend . I was only made aware of it while reading an article about the making of Fallout. So, thanks for the indirect recommendation!

>It's strange, you rarely hear it mentioned in the same breath as other post-apocalyptic literature like A Boy and His Dog or I Am Legend. Only because I rarely hear either of those mentioned at all, unlike Canticle.

I Am Legend has been made into a film at least 3 different times. It’s influenced a lot of people even if they never read the book.

EDIT: The Last Man on Earth (1964), The Omega Man (1971), and I Am Legend (2007), 28 Days Later (2002)…

My favorite is 28 Days Later

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