Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired • Hacker News Board

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#71

Post by ohyes » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:31 PM UTC

jsavimbi wrote: post #63

MicahWedemeyer wrote: post #10

In order to determine which employees would be asked to give stock back, Pincus and his executives tried to pinpoint workers whose contributions to Zynga--in the execs' eyes--didn't necessarily justify the potential cash windfall they could receive when the company went public I'm going to take a wild stab here and guess that none of their own names were on the list they came up with. Whenever crap like this happens,…

This happens everywhere. Employers let the flotsam sit around for months, even years, configuring servers or generating a slide deck and when time comes to shell out cash as either a reward or through compensated attrition, they'll pull out that long-dormant knife and stick it into an unsuspecting recipient's back. That way the don't have to over-compensate the performers beyond what they've already promised them.

This is totally true.

Your employer is not there to do you any favors.

Most likely, they will knife you in the back the minute they get the chance.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#72

Post by kls » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:32 PM UTC

Androsynth wrote: post #65

mmaunder wrote: post #33

Sometimes you just have to sue to enforce a contract and your rights. Many employees either don't realize this or they don't have the stomach for it. If you find yourself in this position, my advice is to play the game and see it through. 1. Don't resign, don't capitulate and hire a good lawyer immediately. If you don't have the cashflow, but are defending a huge pile of stock about to IPO you'll probably find a lawy…

Do they have a legal footing to stand on? The way I read it is: 'We consider you overpaid for the job you are doing and we no longer wish to keep you around at that compensation level'. That is a valid reason to fire someone in CA isn't it?

IT is not a valid reason to reclaim unvested stock, those are looked at like current compensation when termination is unjust. You cant terminate someone just to unvest them. That being said, I always draw a line through and contract that says that I loose vesting on termination, and change it to all options become instantly vested on termination. IF they want to negotiate as to when the options will be awarded to ensure that I am going to do a good job before I get options that is one thing, but I never allow for a termination to unvest me after the fact.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#73

Post by api » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:32 PM UTC

itg wrote: post #64

wccrawford wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not tech. It's anything that can make money. People have stopped considering others and only do what they can to make money. Not that there aren't still ethical people out there, it's just that the unethical ones make it so hard to see them.

I think this is spot on. I have friends who left the finance industry because they absolutely hated the toxic personalities that it attracts. The ones who went into tech say it isn't much different. Anywhere there is fast money to be made will attract scumbags.

The most disturbing thing that I noticed was this: a person's status in the business world (or at least certain sectors of it) seems to be perfectly correlated with how they'd probably score on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist

I'm not making some superficial political statement either. I noticed it in myself. There were people I worked with that I completely hated yet... when they were present... it was almost like a drug. There's this "high" you get off them. You feel more confident just because they're in the room. They've got this kind of charisma that goes beyond mere confidence or enthusiasm. They were, by their actions, the most psychopathic ones.

It's like we have a genetic, predisposed tendency to follow psychopaths. I found it unbelievably disturbing. I'm a bit skeptical of evolutionary psychology, but this is one area where that kind of thinking feels like it could be right. It's like we know, on some subconscious animal level, that while these individuals are dangerous to us they're also more likely to win in a war. They will kill for us. And our genes want to be on the winning team.

Among other things, it converted me to a born-again advocate for human genetic and neurological engineering. We simply have to purge ourselves of this evolutionary legacy code or it will kill us all.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#74

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:32 PM UTC

Regret has never been a good enough reason in the eyes of a judge to annul a contract.

If Zynga agreed to the terms as described they haven't got a leg to stand on. The time to negotiate a contract is before it is signed, not retroactively. If they use the threat of termination then they will lose even more, not only will they not get their stock back, they will also have to pay excessive severance pay due to wrongful termination and they lose their best employees (those that have options).

Prior to an IPO you make sure you don't 'rock the boat' and you make sure that your management team is seen as competent and playing by the rules.

This is neither and I really wonder who is advising them to take these steps. They are hurting themselves in just about every way that I can think of, they look incompetent and sleazy, neither of which is the kind of company that you'd want to invest in.

The IPO cake should be large enough for everybody to share, there is absolutely no need for stupid tactics like these.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#75

Post by alexwolfe » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:32 PM UTC

Bad experiences with stock options happen a lot in the tech world. I believe it's one reason that working for a startup doesn't have the allure it once had. Many are busting there butts and just collecting a paycheck because their shares have been diluted or rescinded. Starting early with a company now doesn't mean nearly as much.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#76

Post by danilocampos » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:33 PM UTC

Wait a minute.

What just a damn minute, here.

Are you telling me that a company that cheerfully built itself on shady shit like un-removable browser toolbars might continue screwing anyone it wants in the furtherance of its leaders' avarice?

I am shocked.

Look, it's endearing when people have scrappy stories about their origins. We all act out of desperate vigor when we're up against the wall and far from our goals. But there's a difference between being scrappy and being a swindler. Scrappiness transmutes into strength and informs your company's values. Swindling, on the other hand, is almost always forever, and informs values in a much more negative way.

A swindler will knife you at the first lucrative opportunity. Avoid them. Do not work with them or for them. They are Aesop's scorpion. Deal with honest men and women instead. Perhaps their purses are marginally smaller – but that's because they won't go rummaging through yours when your back is turned.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#77

Post by egor83 » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:33 PM UTC

api wrote: post #53

pavel_lishin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be willing to do an anonymous AMA, or write up some of your experiences?

I'll do a quick summary. Episode 1: (this is the one that most directly affected me) I was working on a very interesting but somewhat far-off technology. I did some tech talks about it, and put them on Google Video. Was approached by a guy who said he was a wealthy early-stage technology investor. He showed me a lot of stuff that indicated that this was the case, had a lot of real people vouching for him, etc. He mad…

> We do some investigation and find out that this guy's name is on over a dozen defunct LLCs.

> we come to find out that he'd been sued multiple times by previous partners

Is there a way to find out about this in advance? Some kind of database to check who you deal with prior to starting business with them?

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#78

Post by hello_moto » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:34 PM UTC

quattrofan wrote: post #48

Seriosly do these execs realise what a bunch of utter douchebags they look like? I guess they don't care. Personally though I would think twice about going to work for them, whatever they offer apparently is worthless because they can change their mind and take it back off you again later.

They're also a big PHP shop, and keep in mind that this is a game company where long-hours, OT, crazy demands are "normal". Mix them together and ask yourself again if Zynga is a place you'd like to work...

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#79

Post by kls » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:35 PM UTC

thezilch wrote: post #59

mmaunder wrote: post #33

Sometimes you just have to sue to enforce a contract and your rights. Many employees either don't realize this or they don't have the stomach for it. If you find yourself in this position, my advice is to play the game and see it through. 1. Don't resign, don't capitulate and hire a good lawyer immediately. If you don't have the cashflow, but are defending a huge pile of stock about to IPO you'll probably find a lawy…

IANAL. Considering the employees are going to be challenging California's "at will" employment laws and the fact that the charges against the employees is performance based, how likely is #2 to have a fighting chance?

They have a strong argument that the options deprived them of real salary that they would have earned elsewhere. It will be interesting though. The reality though is they just lost every bit of talent they ever gained. The good talent is already in talks with other organizations I can guarantee you, I personally would be looking for an exit and no one I mean no one worth their salt is going to sign up with them now.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#80

Post by lemming » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

ohyes wrote: post #71

jsavimbi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens everywhere. Employers let the flotsam sit around for months, even years, configuring servers or generating a slide deck and when time comes to shell out cash as either a reward or through compensated attrition, they'll pull out that long-dormant knife and stick it into an unsuspecting recipient's back. That way the don't have to over-compensate the performers beyond what they've already promised them.

This is totally true. Your employer is not there to do you any favors. Most likely, they will knife you in the back the minute they get the chance.

This is utter bullshit. And if it's not, anyone reading HN has better options.

Let's stop with the all-employers-are-out-to-screw-you rhetoric because it's clearly not true.