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High property taxes are good

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Re: High property taxes are good

#71

Post by JumpCrisscross »

beefman wrote: post #9
cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #6

Land value taxes are even better. Property taxes provide a disincentive to making the land more productive. A land value tax would incentivize residential landowners to build more units which provides more supply and would lower rents.

Almost all property people buy and sell is productively used, and separating the value of land and improvements is practically impossible. Edit: As a weird example, subtracting what it would cost to build my California house from its current market value gives a value for the lot far lower than the actual market price of an empty lot in this location. This isn't just due to the depreciation of the construction (2012)…

> gives a value for the lot far lower than the actual market price of an empty lot in this location

Retrofitting or tearing down a house in California is expensive. Particularly if it's an old house where there could be e.g. lead or asbestos. Clean lots (presuming it wasn't previously a laundromat) command a value from the baggage they clearly don't bring.

Re: High property taxes are good

#72

Post by gedy »

crisdux wrote: post #44
gedy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those of us who can't afford property will shed no tears. You seem to believe the fallacy that not being able to afford a home is other homeowners fault, and not due to poor government planning (likely by the same politicians you willingly vote for.)

I think you are missing something. It's not about blame, that doesn't matter. People are lashing out. It's about anger at the system. It's becoming increasingly obvious that recently a large part of our personal prosperity is based on incumbency. Our government is routinely breaking social contracts which maintain order. That makes people angry at the system, government and their fellow citizens.

> That makes people angry at the system, government and their fellow citizens.

The "system" and governments frequently prefer angry people direct their rage at other citizens instead of them! QED

Re: High property taxes are good

#73

Post by throwthroyaboat »

anonymousiam wrote: post #61
btilly wrote: post #27

And, thanks to Proposition 13, California has entirely removed this policy tool from consumer housing. A tremendous amount of our problems, from high rent to gridlock, can be traced back to this decision.

Prop 13 solved two problems at once. It forced a reduction in the out-of-control government spending, and it saved seniors from losing their houses. IMHO the only problem with Prop 13 was the "grandfathering" clause. The cuts should have been perpetual and across the board.

Doesn't Prop 13 also apply to commercial property? And second/third/30th houses? I think they smuggled a bear in as a rabbit with this one.

Re: High property taxes are good

#74

Post by yellowapple »

jimmaswell wrote: post #69
laverya wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen a flat parking lot in the downtown of a US city? Low property tax (because it's unimproved) plus real estate speculation.

Unimproved? Building a parking lot isn't cheap and it does make the land more useful.

> Building a parking lot isn't cheap

It's cheaper than an actual building...

> and it does make the land more useful.

...and less useful than one, too.

Re: High property taxes are good

#75

Post by JOnAgain »

jimmaswell wrote: post #69
laverya wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen a flat parking lot in the downtown of a US city? Low property tax (because it's unimproved) plus real estate speculation.

Unimproved? Building a parking lot isn't cheap and it does make the land more useful.

Trivially cheap compared to a 10 story apartment building.

Re: High property taxes are good

#76

Post by deepdriver »

jimmaswell wrote: post #69
laverya wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen a flat parking lot in the downtown of a US city? Low property tax (because it's unimproved) plus real estate speculation.

Unimproved? Building a parking lot isn't cheap and it does make the land more useful.

If your goal is to put up an apartment building, it's cheaper to rip up asphalt than to demolish a multi-level concrete and steel parking structure.

Re: High property taxes are good

#77

Post by spywaregorilla »

jimmaswell wrote: post #69
laverya wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen a flat parking lot in the downtown of a US city? Low property tax (because it's unimproved) plus real estate speculation.

Unimproved? Building a parking lot isn't cheap and it does make the land more useful.

It is comparatively cheap and comparatively less useful

Re: High property taxes are good

#78

Post by humanistbot »

justinzollars wrote: post #47

This community is deranged. All forms of taxation are messed up, the funds end up in grifters pockets, funding wars, or in black holes. The last place I want my money is in a politicians pocket. But this community overwhelmingly supports this concept. If a slave is taxed at 100% and an indentured servant is taxed at 20% - what does that make you?

You might enjoy Somalia.

Re: High property taxes are good

#79

Post by zip1234 »

xhxhsjjsjsnz wrote: post #43
Retric wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that’s a meaningful difference. It would take an extreme property tax to actually incentivize an empty field over productive use of that space. It might in theory make a difference when considering replacing a 40 story building with a 42 story one, but in practice you really don’t see that kind of construction project. In that context pushing for larger jumps before replacement might actually be economi…

It’s not just empty fields. It’s also empty buildings. A grocery store sized unit sat vacant in my San Francisco neighborhood for over a decade. Cheap property tax due to Prop 13. Owners wanted to wait for the “right offer” to develop it.

Many of the abandoned houses in Detroit are owned by speculators who will do nothing with it but wait for land prices to increase.

Re: High property taxes are good

#80

Post by beefman »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #71
beefman wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all property people buy and sell is productively used, and separating the value of land and improvements is practically impossible. Edit: As a weird example, subtracting what it would cost to build my California house from its current market value gives a value for the lot far lower than the actual market price of an empty lot in this location. This isn't just due to the depreciation of the construction (2012)…

> gives a value for the lot far lower than the actual market price of an empty lot in this location Retrofitting or tearing down a house in California is expensive. Particularly if it's an old house where there could be e.g. lead or asbestos. Clean lots (presuming it wasn't previously a laundromat) command a value from the baggage they clearly don't bring.

There's no teardown required here. Developing an empty lot and selling the result will lose you a $1M+ in my town. Spec home development ceased here in 2019.
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