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Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

charmindustrial.com

71–80 of 189 posts

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#71

I wonder if just buying crude oil and burying it isn't more cost effective than transporting bulky biomass which could have been fed to animals in order to put it through this complicated process of converting it to oil and burying it.

How does that help clear the excess biomass produced by farming? The primary problem this solves isn't "carbon capture". It's great that it does, and it's what distinguishes it from other solutions in the same primary business: to help deal with the problem of harvest "waste".

You can buy oil and pump it back in the ground, but now you still need to solve the farming problem.

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#72
post #42

In their FAQ, they mention this statistic. > Every ton of biomass contains roughly 1.65 tons CO₂. On it's surface this is impossible. Does this refer to CO₂ equivalents like Methane? It seems that for carbon specifically, the process (pyrolysis, transportation, etc) emits more than one ton of carbon for every ton of oil sequestered.

Conservation of mass need not apply.

It's the same way that burning 1 kilogram of gasoline produces more than 1 kilogram of CO2. Oxygen from the atmosphere gets bound to the carbon.

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#73
post #55

> Light and flexible pieces of wheat straw in San Francisco had easily been conveyed pneumatically from the tub grinder into the hammer mill. Okay, that is a very basic failure of engineering/imagination. I’m not saying shame is in order here, but several someone’s should be made to feel uncomfortable over this cock-up. Including the hiring manager because they went for kids instead of people with experience. Why on…

The tone of this comment is unduly negative, but I agree that they should be hiring folks with relevant experience. Ag mechanization is a well established degree, combine harvesters and augers exist, etc.

We talk about this at least once a week here, usually in the scope of software, but it’s a problem that exists in other domains (though VCs and us are constantly pushing for more businesses to run like software, which is nuts considering how not in order we know our own house to be).

Ageism and cultishness are how you end up with simple oversights that anyone who has been around the block a few times would either prevent, or at least have enough self consciousness not to breathlessly talk about it in front of strangers.

I think what we miss consistently about the VC model is that we make the 10:1 ratio about chance and betting big, but I suspect the dominant force there is that 4 times out of 5, experience will save you from doing something expensively stupid. However once in a while it’s a clever generalist or someone who “doesn’t know any better” that uncovers a major advancement that the experienced people are blind to. So less than half of those failures are not thinking outside of the box, and most of the rest are not even knowing there was a box to begin with.

We tend to see this as an either or scenario. Throw a bunch of kids together or hire a bunch of cranky old men and women who say no all the time. That’s a false dichotomy. Hire some of both, don’t let the older ones steal all of the glory.

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#74
Interesting fact about those whole truck dumping systems:

There is a small vent that you have to open at the front of the trailer BEFORE you raise it to dump out the contents.

Failure to do so leads to a vacuum effect that can implode the trailer as the biomass pours out

Source: friend of mine worked in the paper industry and this was a somewhat regular occurence

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#75
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. No one wants to live in Kansas. And it's extremely difficult to build in a rural setting. You try prototyping an experimental cutting-edge technology in the middle of a corn field 2 hours from the nearest Home Depot or metal fabricator.

There are less drastic options than Kansas that would work fine. Chicago has an international airport. Indianapolis as well (though it’s not listed in Wikipedia, which makes me wonder how complete that is). St Louis and Minneapolis are major hubs. Large airports besides those I’m less familiar with, but if you’re planning to process corn waste what you need is rail access, not air. So then you can add a lot more of t…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_International_Air... ?

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#76
I like seeing the modern engineering write up here. Almost everytime I read green energy/ag stuff, it’s either math latex or marketing copy. I assume it’s because IP protection but problems/solution/problem is the kind of stuff that becomes good conversations

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#77

I wonder if just buying crude oil and burying it isn't more cost effective than transporting bulky biomass which could have been fed to animals in order to put it through this complicated process of converting it to oil and burying it.

How does that help clear the excess biomass produced by farming? The primary problem this solves isn't "carbon capture". It's great that it does, and it's what distinguishes it from other solutions in the same primary business: to help deal with the problem of harvest "waste". You can buy oil and pump it back in the ground, but now you still need to solve the farming problem.

Corn and wheat post-harvest biomass is usually tilled into the ground to improve organic matter in the soil and return nutrients to the soil, or fed to cows and other ruminants by grazing or by cutting.

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#78

For quite a few years I looked into similar processes based fundamentally on biological photosynthesis, for example algal pool farms and similar approaches to generating hydrocarbons from biomass. At present, I think direct air capture of CO2 followed by reduction to methane and longer hydrocarbons using water-sourced H2 (all without going through the biological photosynthesis) is going to be the long-term winning te…

I’ve thought a good target would be polluted lakes with algae problems or diverting part of rivers with agricultural runoff.

Pump oxygen and whatever bottleneck nutrient in and harvest algae. You’ll clean the excess nutrients out of the water and sink carbon at same time.

Do this in the Mississippi River delta for maximum effect, do a pilot in a Minnesota lake first.

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#79
post #15
post #4

How do you get so far into a project before you even realize that you have such a show-stopper problem? Move fast / fail fast works with software because iteration times are quick and penalty per iteration is low. But just building stuff and hoping it works and then realizing major problems doesn't work so well with real-world stuff. Couldn't they have "workshopped" this with non-functional item to see what the real…

Somehow you never quite get the real raw material when you ask for samples, no matter how careful you are. I worked on a system once upon a time that fed steel balls into a ball mill. We tested it thoroughly in the workshop with the same steel balls used on the customer's site, but when we went to commission it, it jammed non-stop. Turns out a hundred randomly selected balls won't contain most of the outliers that yo…

I found your comment fascinating (and frustrating). Dealing with bad inputs on a web form can be tricky. Dealing with bad inputs made of steel seems like a lot more work =].

What comes out of a steel ball mill? And why is steel made into (misshapen) balls before this process?

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#80
post #55

> Light and flexible pieces of wheat straw in San Francisco had easily been conveyed pneumatically from the tub grinder into the hammer mill. Okay, that is a very basic failure of engineering/imagination. I’m not saying shame is in order here, but several someone’s should be made to feel uncomfortable over this cock-up. Including the hiring manager because they went for kids instead of people with experience. Why on…

The tone of this comment is unduly negative, but I agree that they should be hiring folks with relevant experience. Ag mechanization is a well established degree, combine harvesters and augers exist, etc.

I don't think it's that negative. They clearly should have brought in people with relevant experience in the field before implementing the system. How much money and time did they waste fixing their system to account for Corn Cobs?
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