Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 88 posts

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#71

Post by mrshadowgoose »

dangus wrote: post #64
mrshadowgoose wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Build trains...on every single road in existence? Neither my house or workplace is adequately serviced by public transport, and even if they both were, I wouldn't use it unless legally or financially forced to. I enjoy proceeding directly from point A to B in the comfort of a private space, and so do very many other people. The waste of personally-owned automobiles is admittedly abhorrent. Electrification and self-dr…

This video might be relevant to your described scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXB0CY2tSQ Notice how in The Netherlands, despite making bikes, transit, and pedestrians welcome in this suburban business park near the airport, you can still drive there if you want. Yes, if you lived in The Netherlands, you could drive to this business park shown in the video in your personal vehicle. There's a parking garage…

I'm very familiar with the stark difference between North American and European transit systems. I've actually visited the Netherlands multiple times, and many other European cities. Totally agree that we generally do public transit miserably in NA, and have a lot of room for improvement.

All I was getting at with my original comment is that "trains for everyone" is as ridiculous of a concept as "cars for everyone".

> You're saying that you would choose a personal vehicle, but does that choice have the potential to change if the surrounding circumstances change?

Sure, as mentioned, if severe artificial barriers are put up to car usage, I would begrudgingly change. Absent that, no, I like my personal space. I like not getting rained on, not getting snowed on and not walking through -30C temperatures. Currently, I can get into a personal vehicle inside a garage, and proceed directly to my workplace's garage. Buses and trains will never match that, at least, not in the city I live in.

> Making cars self-driving is putting lipstick on a pig. It's like taking high blood pressure drugs instead of losing weight.

It's tremendously frustrating to constantly butt up against the foregone conclusion of "car is intrinsically bad no matter what". Safety and environmental impact are commonly accepted as the two largest issues with cars. We are poised to address both of these over the next two decades. Yet cars are still somehow intrinsically bad nonetheless? Is usage of a vehicle bad if one is not sharing the interior of it with a certain number of other people at any given time?

At the end of the day, I am a strong believer in enabling people to live their lives the way they want to, when reasonably practical. To cover most of the population, this means building pedestrian and cyclist friendly infrastructure, public transit, and supporting the safe and efficient use of personal vehicles too. And there's nothing stopping this from all coexisting, as you've already stated.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#72

Post by tuatoru »

wizofaus wrote: post #45
mrshadowgoose wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Build trains...on every single road in existence? Neither my house or workplace is adequately serviced by public transport, and even if they both were, I wouldn't use it unless legally or financially forced to. I enjoy proceeding directly from point A to B in the comfort of a private space, and so do very many other people. The waste of personally-owned automobiles is admittedly abhorrent. Electrification and self-dr…

Can you give an example of a large metropolis anywhere in the world where it's realistic for a significant percentage of the population to all be able to enjoy "proceeding directly from point A to B in the comfort of a private space" without any significant externalities? Or are you suggesting we need to massively decentralise?

If Point A is your desk at home, and Point B is the fridge, there are a few.

Only one or two nationalities would insist on using a vehicle for that trip, though.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#73

Post by SheinhardtWigCo »

37ef_ced3 wrote: post #3

From a customer's perspective, it isn't clear that a hardware/software taxi driver is in any way better than a human taxi driver, particularly with (human) driver assist preventing collisions and all the other warnings provided by a modern car. In both cases someone else is driving for the customer. With a human driver (plus driver assist braking and collision warnings) you have the most flexible, sophisticated intel…

Have you been in an AV? In my experience (around 50 rides) overall it's a more relaxed and smooth ride; strikingly so, even at this early stage in the game. There are occasional uncomfortable and/or confusing moments, but they're already becoming much less frequent. Lyft/Uber already feels less comfortable, and even less safe. It's horse vs car; elevator operator vs buttons; Blackberry vs iPhone all over again.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#74

Post by tuatoru »

mrshadowgoose wrote: post #71
dangus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video might be relevant to your described scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXB0CY2tSQ Notice how in The Netherlands, despite making bikes, transit, and pedestrians welcome in this suburban business park near the airport, you can still drive there if you want. Yes, if you lived in The Netherlands, you could drive to this business park shown in the video in your personal vehicle. There's a parking garage…

I'm very familiar with the stark difference between North American and European transit systems. I've actually visited the Netherlands multiple times, and many other European cities. Totally agree that we generally do public transit miserably in NA, and have a lot of room for improvement. All I was getting at with my original comment is that "trains for everyone" is as ridiculous of a concept as "cars for everyone".…

> Safety and environmental impact are commonly accepted as the two largest issues with cars. We are poised to address both of these over the next two decades. Yet cars are still somehow intrinsically bad nonetheless?

Urban designs that encourage (practically require) walking a few more kilometres/miles a day would add years to healthy lifespan at a population level.

So if you prefix "Health and" to Safety, then yes, cars are intrinsically worse than most alternatives.

Also, the environmental impact of cars does not just come from their emissions. Spreading cities out requires longer (and thicker) wires, longer pipes, and more maintenance of roads and berms, and it causes more soil loss.

Self driving and electric motors (I am guessing these are what you refer to with "we are poised to address") can't solve these problems.

In transport the choices are not between "good" and "bad", they are between bad with one set of disadvantages, and bad with another set of disadvantages. To me, urban designs that require less transport overall are to be preferred.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#76

Post by SheinhardtWigCo »

salmonfamine wrote: post #8

Self-driving cars are a solution for a problem that has already been solved. Build trains. But of course, this doesn't benefit automakers, requires a move towards high-density housing that NIMBY's and certain classes of investors oppose, so instead we'll create an entirely new class of problems by allowing these companies to unleash their insufficient technology on public roads.

Fast forward ten years.

They are trains, sans every major problem with trains: almost no fixed infrastructure, no last mile problem, no expensive human driver/conductor, yet similar vehicle construction cost per seat.

Eventually they'll block off a lane of every major freeway and you'll be able to go anywhere in the country at an average of 160 mph, with no need for bulldozers, eminent domain, new viaducts, years of environmental review, etc.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#77

Post by PraetorianGourd »

Humans are abstractly selfless but functionally selfish. In the abstract, trains and bikes and walking are wonderful forms of transportation. And creating cities where cars are not needed is a wonderful goal.

Except, cars exist. We can go from here to there in absolute comfort, listening to the music we want, stopping exactly where we want. Any solution needs to be faster, cheaper, or easier. Probably all three.

It is insanely easy to say that some abstract “they” should just change their lifestyle for the good of humanity. But the trouble is turning the abstract “they” into the specific “me”. Even if we had the pipe-dream of one mile cities, what if my mile has great sushi, but I want pho? Get on a bus to that mile and then walk? Or just drive to it?

Lastly, we have self-driving cars. They are called taxis. And for most people, the price of a car payment + gas + maintenance + insurance is less than one would spend on a taxi per month. But we still prefer cars. Because they are faster, more comfortable etc.

You either need to force people into your worldview or make the alternative better. The former is a losing strategy, so do the latter.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#78

Post by anonuser123456 »

DoneWithAllThat wrote: post #9
salmonfamine wrote: post #8

Self-driving cars are a solution for a problem that has already been solved. Build trains. But of course, this doesn't benefit automakers, requires a move towards high-density housing that NIMBY's and certain classes of investors oppose, so instead we'll create an entirely new class of problems by allowing these companies to unleash their insufficient technology on public roads.

Explain how trains solve the last mile problem? The thing that roads already solve?

You get off the train onto your segway.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#79

Post by ratg13 »

mrshadowgoose wrote: post #43
salmonfamine wrote: post #8

Self-driving cars are a solution for a problem that has already been solved. Build trains. But of course, this doesn't benefit automakers, requires a move towards high-density housing that NIMBY's and certain classes of investors oppose, so instead we'll create an entirely new class of problems by allowing these companies to unleash their insufficient technology on public roads.

Build trains...on every single road in existence? Neither my house or workplace is adequately serviced by public transport, and even if they both were, I wouldn't use it unless legally or financially forced to. I enjoy proceeding directly from point A to B in the comfort of a private space, and so do very many other people. The waste of personally-owned automobiles is admittedly abhorrent. Electrification and self-dr…

We are not discussing every single road in existence.

We are discussing high-density cities where the problem in the article is occurring.

There is more entitlement in your argument than I care to address, but it serves as a strong reminder of why American cities are so travel-hostile compared to European cities.

Re: Cruise’s Robot Car Outages Are Jamming Up San Francisco

#80

Post by concordDance »

salmonfamine wrote: post #8

Self-driving cars are a solution for a problem that has already been solved. Build trains. But of course, this doesn't benefit automakers, requires a move towards high-density housing that NIMBY's and certain classes of investors oppose, so instead we'll create an entirely new class of problems by allowing these companies to unleash their insufficient technology on public roads.

Trains are incredibly expensive. Both making the lines and using them.

Judging by HS2 it costs around £200 million per km of track.

And it also costs around £0.5 per mile to use and door to door travel times are generally 2-3x higher on public transport.

Trains are NOT a solution.

Post reply on HN