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Is the United States Exceptional?

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Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#71

Post by pishpash »

Tainnor wrote: post #51
starkd wrote: post #5

This is a common misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'exceptional'. The origins of the phrase "American exceptionalism" had nothing to do with greatness or thinking one country is better than another. It is exceptional only in that the country was concieved as an exception to the rule of where its power ultimately comes from. The normal foundation for the state was upon a divinely anointed monarchy. America w…

There are a number of examples of non-monarchies that existed before the US did, such as Switzerland or the United Provinces, and at least the former had some elements of democracy built in early on (Landsgemeinde). Undoubtedly, the American Revolution was huge and created something novel, but it's not like it all happened in a vacuum.

I mean, confederacies are older than monarchies in human history. Even in N. America there was the Iroquois Confederacy right there. Not to take away from the rebellion and the formalization of political philosophy, but this is typical puffery by the ascendent Anglo-Saxons who were looking for a superiority narrative to serve the need of colonial nation-building and subsequently world domination.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#72

Post by Tainnor »

ghufran_syed wrote: post #60
yongjik wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea was exceptional (and revolutionary) in 1776, but it's 2022 now. Practically every country has a constitution stating that its power derives from the people, and a number of countries do make good on that promise. If anything, what's exceptional about America is how its citizens are treating fossilized details of a 246-year-old system as critically important, conveniently ignoring that America's founding fath…

“ Practically every country has a constitution stating that its power derives from the people, and a number of countries do make good on that promise.” Interesting claim - how would you square that with, say, the fact that majorities of “the people” in the UK support the death penalty for child murderers, and yet both main political parties have conspired to ban the death penalty? Does “power deriving” from the peopl…

That's a pretty ridiculous take on what "power derived from the people" means. Neither the UK nor the US are direct democracies. In fact, unlike the Ancient world, there are almost no direct democracies today (even federal Swiss democracy has representative elements).

You can find in any representative democracy positions which, at some time, are majority positions yet not implemented in law. In the US, you have a recent example with the legality of abortions.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#73

Post by elevation »

mikkergp wrote: post #8
starkd wrote: post #5

This is a common misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'exceptional'. The origins of the phrase "American exceptionalism" had nothing to do with greatness or thinking one country is better than another. It is exceptional only in that the country was concieved as an exception to the rule of where its power ultimately comes from. The normal foundation for the state was upon a divinely anointed monarchy. America w…

While this may be true originally or historically, I don’t think it’s what most people today mean colloquially when they say American Exceptionalism, and I think there’s a large group of people that agree more with the colloquial definition.

The "colloquial" definition has been popularized by those who demean the US rhetorically. You can paint as a fool anyone who claims that "American Exceptionalism" even exists by contrasting the phrase to any statistic that makes the US look less than "exceptional."

However, the classical definition, that the U.S. has a historically unique operating agreement, is generally understood in politically conservative contexts.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#74

Post by Hammershaft »

WalterBright wrote: post #16

A nation founded on the principles of all men being created equal, along with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is indeed exceptional. The results have been exceptional, too. The US does indeed have plenty of problems, but those problems are usually traceable to neglecting those founding principles.

> A nation founded on the principles of all men being created equal, along with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

Isn't the legacy of these 'founding principles' tarnished from the fact that many of the founding fathers owned hundreds of slaves? We are still within a living generation of segregation in southern states, an injustice that owes directly to how the founding fathers applied those principles.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#75

Post by [deleted] »

ghufran_syed wrote: post #60
yongjik wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea was exceptional (and revolutionary) in 1776, but it's 2022 now. Practically every country has a constitution stating that its power derives from the people, and a number of countries do make good on that promise. If anything, what's exceptional about America is how its citizens are treating fossilized details of a 246-year-old system as critically important, conveniently ignoring that America's founding fath…

“ Practically every country has a constitution stating that its power derives from the people, and a number of countries do make good on that promise.” Interesting claim - how would you square that with, say, the fact that majorities of “the people” in the UK support the death penalty for child murderers, and yet both main political parties have conspired to ban the death penalty? Does “power deriving” from the peopl…

[deleted]

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#76

Post by s1artibartfast »

cowtools wrote: post #62
oblio wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the common misunderstanding is one of the core American tenets. It's one of the core American myths which is directly transmitted through American education, and the vast majority of Americans believe it. Even those that say they don't will recoil when you disprove or contest some key aspects, it's a very ingrained idea. Everyone wants to be part of an exceptional nation because then there's a chance th…

If it is a myth, then it's a noble lie.

It might even be an exceptional myth

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#77

Post by oblio »

starkd wrote: post #18
oblio wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the common misunderstanding is one of the core American tenets. It's one of the core American myths which is directly transmitted through American education, and the vast majority of Americans believe it. Even those that say they don't will recoil when you disprove or contest some key aspects, it's a very ingrained idea. Everyone wants to be part of an exceptional nation because then there's a chance th…

Well, any successful nation cannot be successful without believing in itself. True.

True, but ask the average Brit or German and compare notes with the average American ;-)

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#78

Post by yucky »

pishpash wrote: post #71
Tainnor wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a number of examples of non-monarchies that existed before the US did, such as Switzerland or the United Provinces, and at least the former had some elements of democracy built in early on (Landsgemeinde). Undoubtedly, the American Revolution was huge and created something novel, but it's not like it all happened in a vacuum.

I mean, confederacies are older than monarchies in human history. Even in N. America there was the Iroquois Confederacy right there. Not to take away from the rebellion and the formalization of political philosophy, but this is typical puffery by the ascendent Anglo-Saxons who were looking for a superiority narrative to serve the need of colonial nation-building and subsequently world domination.

>this is typical puffery by the ascendent Anglo-Saxons who were looking for a superiority narrative

By what metric was there not superiority?

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#79

Post by ncmncm »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #64
ncmncm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly the ambiguity is taken advantage of wherever convenient.

I'm not sure I catch your meaning. Exceptional is a magnitude in my mind. It needs an adjective to go along with it

Like "fraught". Fraught with what?

But leaving it unsaid is more convenient all around.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#80

Post by the_third_wave »

egKYzyXeIL wrote: post #44
srvmshr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. The reasons where US shines & is able to draw talent is probably several of these: * US is absolutely the leader in innovation. No doubts about it. * Champion of democracy. The US political system & constitution has inspired a lot of other countries. Its a very immaculately drawn political system built on checks & balances * High degree of choices to an individual to shape his life * High degree of demographic…

I don't think it was intentional, but given the recent Roe v Wade controversy I find it amusing that your wrote "High degree of choices to an individual to shape _his_ life". Gave me a chuckle.

Roe vs. Wade being overturned means that the policy on abortion reverts back to the states, the way your constitution states things which are not regulated by it are to be decided. Some states will continue to offer late-term abortions, some will move to a model more comparable to that in much of Europe with 1st term elective abortions being legal, others will move to ban elective abortions altogether.

The emphasis on his is not as telling as you make it out to be given that fathers also play a role in the conception (by definition) and raising (hopefully) of children. Some men will see what they considered to be their "right" to skip the consequence of them having intercourse without contraception taken away. Those who consider elective late-term abortion to be an essential part of life may move to those states which continue to provide this - New York and California seem to be poised to become abortion 'free states' - while those who consider abortion to be an abomination/against their religion/... may move to those states where it is limited. As far as I know - and correct me if I'm wrong - there are no states where abortion in case of rape or incest or in those cases where the life of the mother is directly threatened is forbidden.

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