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The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#71

Post by UkrainianJew »

sealeck wrote: post #39
hawk_ wrote: post #31

I am curious to see how this plays out with the coming recession (hiring freezes instituted already). I suspect that #3 segment will prove to be ephemeral - a result of fed's QE unlimited regime.

If you look at Google, Apple, Amazon, etc's balance sheets they're quite solid, not really at this point propped up by monetary policy any more.

It's not that easy. Lots of Amazon's profits come from countless unprofitable startups blowing VC money on AWS. Google is swimming in money because numerous companies have generous ad budgets. Apple relies on people exchanging their smartphone every year or so because why not.

You cannot expect these things to go unchanged if the Fed stops throwing money around like it's used to. And if it doesn't, a bag of rice will soon cost $1000 because we have an shortage of farm workers and an oversupply of wellness bloggers, influencers and administrators.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#72

Post by WJW »

seibelj wrote: post #53
nerdponx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest US government expenses are the military and overcomplicated inefficient social programs (Medicare, food stamps, Social Security). Moreover, the logical extreme of this argument is to just not have a government at all. I don't need bridges because I don't drive. I don't need the fire department because I am careful. Etc. It doesn't make sense, and the truth is that some things either best administered cent…

The brightest minds don’t go into government bureaucracies - they don’t get respect, don’t get paid, can’t get shit done, and a myriad of reasons why they go private instead. The best-staffed departments are those that have a symbiotic relationship with the private sector, like the SEC, where doing a government stint raises your value in the private sector significantly. Because we have seen endless waste and corrupt…

I'm not saying you're not correct wherever you are, but it's important to recognize that there is a significant cultural aspect in this. In the US, you would be entirely correct: talented people don't go into the government and thus the public sector is filled with subpar employees. In many EU countries, the government has more prestige, thus it attracts more talent and so it works better and gets more prestige. It's a feedback loop in both directions.

I can point to a great many effective government services in my own country in western Europe for example.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#73

Post by BossingAround »

ceeplusplus wrote: post #3

Unfortunately this misses the difference in taxation vs. the US. You pay almost nothing for healthcare at any tech company and pay much lower taxes (both income and sales tax). So European offers are still much less competitive than the US.

"Competitive" is highly relative. It might not be competitive to you, but I'd rather have less money and save a ton on not having to use a car, and not paying thousands of dollars for each hospital visit when I had cancer.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#75

Post by abduhl »

pedrosorio wrote: post #55
kingkawn wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Niiiice calling people from poor countries “the dregs”

The competition is among companies (and the salary they are willing to pay to attract devs), so "the dregs" are the companies paying those salaries, not the devs.

This is a VERY charitable reading of the GP’s post. They mention beating “people” not companies and talk about “the kind of devs that can move around.”

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#76

Post by BossingAround »

seibelj wrote: post #45
djvdq wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say that I want to have better train infrastructure. How much will it cost me to build that, according to your thinking?

I would rather a private company build it, or in a public / private partnership, so we at least have some semblance of breaking-even if not a small profit. Our current train systems are so woefully wasteful, inefficient, prone to breaking down, and so on that simply giving the same corruption more money would be extremely unwise.

I see no real reason why public transport must be necessarily profitable. It's a common good that tax payers enjoy. You'll have profitable legs, but you'll also have legs that are used by a few folks from a village who need to get to the city once a week, and those will never be profitable. A private company would probably not build there.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#77

Post by varispeed »

maccard wrote: post #56
ceeplusplus wrote: post #3

Unfortunately this misses the difference in taxation vs. the US. You pay almost nothing for healthcare at any tech company and pay much lower taxes (both income and sales tax). So European offers are still much less competitive than the US.

in some states. On a salary of £120,000 in the UK, you'll take home 60% of your pay [0], meanwhile in California on $145,000 [1] you take home 63%. The real difference is that it's very hard to be paid 120,000 in the UK. [0] https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php [1] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-paycheck-calculator#...

This is a bit misleading, because on £120k salary the employer has to additionally pay £17k of employer's NI which comes from your salary budget. So in real terms you make £137k and your take home is about 53% (and it's get worse as your pay goes up as you are losing personal allowance and your take home quickly becomes less than 50%). It does not account for Apprenticeship Levy. It's a quite nasty way for the government to hide the true level of taxation from employees.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#78

Post by BossingAround »

nivenkos wrote: post #52
ornornor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corollary is that you live like a king in a country where people could be billionaires or they could be poor, desperate, with untreated mental health issues, nothing to lose, and a loaded gun. On the global scale, I wouldn’t say the US is a beacon of progress and happiness. It’s better than many bottom tier countries but far from top tier countries (which aren’t as liberal, for the most part)

What top tier countries? The US is the wealthiest country in the world by miles. It's had the highest GDP every single year for over 100 years continuously. That amount of capital is phenomenal, and part of why Americans enjoy salaries 3-4x higher than even Western Europe in most professional work - Tech, Medicine, Law, truck driving, etc. And that money allows you to work your way up, and buy your own property, etc.…

> The US is the wealthiest country in the world by miles.

True, but the point is that most of that wealth is highly concentrated. Hence why the US is not the beacon of happiness and progress.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#79

Post by digianarchist »

maccard wrote: post #56
ceeplusplus wrote: post #3

Unfortunately this misses the difference in taxation vs. the US. You pay almost nothing for healthcare at any tech company and pay much lower taxes (both income and sales tax). So European offers are still much less competitive than the US.

in some states. On a salary of £120,000 in the UK, you'll take home 60% of your pay [0], meanwhile in California on $145,000 [1] you take home 63%. The real difference is that it's very hard to be paid 120,000 in the UK. [0] https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php [1] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-paycheck-calculator#...

There can be huge tax advantages in the US compared to Canada or the EU. My effective rate in California is 24% because I can file my taxes jointly which isn't possible elsewhere.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#80

Post by yrgulation »

kayoone wrote: post #61
yrgulation wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because you are at a senior level in that market. Few eu countries can compete with the uk in terms of pay and modern tech.

Working in Berlin tech, I found London salaries not that interesting considering the cost of living is easily 2x of Berlin.

Well to be honest london is not an ideal place to live in. But thanks to remote contracting and london rates, the uk market can be quite attractive.
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