Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

pearlleff.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 97 posts

Re: The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

#71

Post by y-c-o-m-b »

ryanklee wrote: post #26
_8j50 wrote: post #10

If you like college good for you. But the first two years are bullshit. The last two, you should be able to learn them on the job for many career tracks and test them out. Articulate for me exactly why biology, chemistry, philosophy,etc... are neccesary for a Compsci or IT degree? Because the british said so many centuries ago is not a good reason. Neither is "what about the profits of colleges". We put up with 12 ye…

University is not trade school. There is more function there than simply learning to do the narrow job one believes the future may have in store for them. Here are some others: - Obtain fodder for sufficient individuation - Find sexual mates - Find platonic mates - Learn many disconnected things - Learn many connected things - Learn to take criticism in the open - Learn to render criticism in the open - Engage divers…

You can do all of those things outside of University though. I think you actually made a very valid argument against your point.

University is beneficial for access to laboratory infrastructure that you otherwise couldn't obtain on your own without incurring significant cost. A good - albeit extreme - example is the nuclear reactor at Reed College. University also provides you with resources to ask questions on observations or thoughts around what you experiment with in the lab. It's a great sandbox and gives you flexibility to determine what you want to do in life before you fully invest into it. This is only true to the extent in which you're not pouring thousands of dollars down the drain at college to learn you just wanted to weld shit together. Conversely I think trade school is where you've discovered what you want to do and you go learn how to do it with peak proficiency in a controlled setting.

Re: The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

#72

Post by ryanklee »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #56
ryanklee wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University is not trade school. There is more function there than simply learning to do the narrow job one believes the future may have in store for them. Here are some others: - Obtain fodder for sufficient individuation - Find sexual mates - Find platonic mates - Learn many disconnected things - Learn many connected things - Learn to take criticism in the open - Learn to render criticism in the open - Engage divers…

A "liberal education" was, originally, an education appropriate to free people, as opposed to slaves. Slaves got an education that was more like trade school, if at all. Free people got an education for those who didn't have to work for a living. If you're getting that education today, it has value, but you'd better be in a position where you don't need it to get you a job when you're done. On the other hand: > Obtai…

> One of the things you don't learn in college: Not to talk like that.

Totally uncivil comment.

Re: The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

#73

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ryanklee wrote: post #72
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "liberal education" was, originally, an education appropriate to free people, as opposed to slaves. Slaves got an education that was more like trade school, if at all. Free people got an education for those who didn't have to work for a living. If you're getting that education today, it has value, but you'd better be in a position where you don't need it to get you a job when you're done. On the other hand: > Obtai…

> One of the things you don't learn in college: Not to talk like that. Totally uncivil comment.

Fair. I stated it badly, which made it look like a personal attack. So let me try again:

In most environments, that kind of writing comes across as pretentious, and even as deliberately obscure. But for at least some people, in college they learn to write that way, because it gives them better grades. But they would in fact communicate better if they didn't write that way, and college in general would be better if they taught people how to write for a general audience, instead of for professors.

Now you in particular, just that one sentence struck me that way. Your writing in general didn't come across that way, and my comment should not be taken as a personal attack. That one sentence, though, I feel merits criticism.

Re: The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

#74

Post by ryanklee »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #73
ryanklee wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the things you don't learn in college: Not to talk like that. Totally uncivil comment.

Fair. I stated it badly, which made it look like a personal attack. So let me try again: In most environments, that kind of writing comes across as pretentious, and even as deliberately obscure. But for at least some people, in college they learn to write that way, because it gives them better grades. But they would in fact communicate better if they didn't write that way, and college in general would be better if th…

In a different context or some other format, I would not have been so brief. But the point of the list was simply to rattle off indications of ideas, not to communicate concepts with reliable clarity.

Further, what's pretentious to one audience is idiomatic to another. HN has a diverse crowd with many backgrounds. Implying that your own taste in this matter is representative is a bit much.

Edit: I'll admit I'm feeling a little sensitive at the moment. I've had a bad week. If I'm being a bit defensive here, I apologize. I do essentially agree with your judgment re that particular bullet -- I might have landed on better words.

Re: The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

#75

Post by AnimalMuppet »

brewdad wrote: post #62
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people can't construct a valid argument unless they have taken philosophy classes in college? That sounds like your argument is rather shoddy.

What is your argument then? Saying nuh-uh you're wrong isn't a valid argument.

Saying "that argument is faulty" is a valid argument about the other argument. It is not a valid argument about the original topic.

I can say that the argument is invalid without even taking a position on the original topic. I can do so with extra appreciation of the irony when the original claim was "those people can't construct a valid argument".

Re: The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

#76

Post by wiremine »

cs137 wrote: post #54
teakettle42 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving your child a gradual introduction to the real world is giving them an advantage. Coddling them through a perpetual adolescence isn’t doing them any favors; it’s setting them up for exactly the kinds of failures you’re referring to.

The problem is that financial pressures never improve people. Sure, extreme financial abundance can turn a person into an insufferable, amoral twat; but no one's life has ever been improved by deprivation. Should a kid spend a summer during high school working a "regular" job so as to understand what bullshit average people have to go through (and to do everything possible not to end up in such circumstances)? Sure.…

> On the other hand, Game Theory 101 tells us that forced plays are often lousy moves

I think this falls into the category of "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." Teaching children, in an age appropriate way that takes their unique strengths and weaknesses into consideration, is the definition of parenting. Preparing kids for life on their own is important.

Keeping commitments, budgeting and long-term planning are important skills. Having someone pay a small amount of rent is a reasonable way to do that. Not the only way, but it's a viable way.

Re: The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

#77

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ryanklee wrote: post #74
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair. I stated it badly, which made it look like a personal attack. So let me try again: In most environments, that kind of writing comes across as pretentious, and even as deliberately obscure. But for at least some people, in college they learn to write that way, because it gives them better grades. But they would in fact communicate better if they didn't write that way, and college in general would be better if th…

In a different context or some other format, I would not have been so brief. But the point of the list was simply to rattle off indications of ideas, not to communicate concepts with reliable clarity. Further, what's pretentious to one audience is idiomatic to another. HN has a diverse crowd with many backgrounds. Implying that your own taste in this matter is representative is a bit much. Edit: I'll admit I'm feelin…

Hey, I've never done that. Never been over sensitive on HN. Never snapped at anyone because I was having a bad week. Never... um, or maybe not this week... um... (checks time of my initial post in this thread) this afternoon?

We've all been there. May your week improve.

Re: The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

#78

Post by _8j50 »

arethuza wrote: post #29
tedheath123 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it the British that said so? AFAIK most British undergraduate courses don't have general education requirements

Yeah - I did a CS degree at a UK university in the 1980s and it was 4 years of maths & CS stuff - pretty focused. Learning how to actually write code was something you were pretty much expected to pick up by yourself - most of the CS classes had requirements to do a personal project which was a large part of the marks for that class. Absolutely no way could any graduate from that course without having produced multip…

Would love to take a look at the courses in that degree. That's my main hangup, I have such a thirst to learn college level compsci (not how to code but algorithms, theories,etc...) and crypto but spending two years writing english essays and philosophy presentations is no bueno.

Re: The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

#79

Post by _8j50 »

davidgay wrote: post #51
_8j50 wrote: post #10

If you like college good for you. But the first two years are bullshit. The last two, you should be able to learn them on the job for many career tracks and test them out. Articulate for me exactly why biology, chemistry, philosophy,etc... are neccesary for a Compsci or IT degree? Because the british said so many centuries ago is not a good reason. Neither is "what about the profits of colleges". We put up with 12 ye…

> Articulate for me exactly why biology, chemistry, philosophy,etc... are neccesary for a Compsci or IT degree? In Europe (AFAIK this is very broadly true) you're expected to have covered these in high school, and university is for focusing on a single field (and its prerequisites, so lots of math in engineering fields, e.g.)

See that makes sense to me. But dare I ask why europe is not 2 years then? Do US colleges teach less because in the US, you could be studying oceanology or electrical engineering and the first two years are more or less same courses. In HS, I mostly showed up to class and cruised through with minimal effort last two years bc it wasn't that interesting or challenging.

Re: The Value of an Undergraduate Degree

#80

Post by _8j50 »

andreilys wrote: post #39
ryanklee wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University is not trade school. There is more function there than simply learning to do the narrow job one believes the future may have in store for them. Here are some others: - Obtain fodder for sufficient individuation - Find sexual mates - Find platonic mates - Learn many disconnected things - Learn many connected things - Learn to take criticism in the open - Learn to render criticism in the open - Engage divers…

You don’t need to go to college to do any of that. The same can be accomplished with a year of travel and a year of internships/apprenticeships. Also I think at this point it’s safe to say that a college environment does not in any way shape or form engage diversify. It tends to be a monolithic culture that is hostile to contrarian views that may disrupt may d disrupt the status quo.

Military service does much more in those social areas than college. Intermixing with others and learning how to get along and communicate are not optional there -- as unpopular as that may be.
Post reply on HN