No-one knows what they are doing • Hacker News Board

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#71

Post by benjaminwootton » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 12:23 PM UTC

nonrandomstring wrote: post #68

benjaminwootton wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been fairly close to the digitalisation agenda in UK public sector, and apart from pockets, I find it hard to be so generous. Horrible outsourcing deals with the usual suspects and enormous failed programmes are still the default.

Reading the parent comment about Denmark made me sad. I feel that in the UK we have smart, dedicated, well intentioned people just like Denmark, but if the NHS RiO system and Track-and-Trace are anything to go by we are plagued by massive corruption in the IT sector. This is the country of Alan Turing, Sir Tim Berners-Lee and Acorn RISC Machines. We need a new broom on public IT. I think we also need an outright ban…

I think the bigger problem is the consultancies and system integrators.

The government sign huge outsourcing which propose large, expensive, long waterfall style projects with outdated architecture etc.

Time and time again these programmes fail, but the government money just keeps on flowing.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#72

Post by quickthrower2 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 12:25 PM UTC

tpoacher wrote: post #59

EnKopVand wrote: post #5

I’m going to let you in on a little secret. I spent almost a decade in public sector digitalisation in Denmark, and those politicians who look like they don’t know what they are doing in the media, well, they absolutely know what they are doing. Not only that, but they get advice from a bureaucracy full of well educated, really smart people, who also know what they are doing and have known so for decades. One of the…

I think this largely depends on the definition of "know". E.g., when I used to work as a doctor in hospital, the last thing I would describe my colleagues as would be incompetent or un-knowing. They all "knew" stuff. Heck, they had to pass stringent exams, and were still accountable to several agencies to ensure being up to date. The thing is, 50% of what they "knew" was wrong. And if you looked a bit under the surfa…

Doctors are great if you have a problem doctors are great at. Otherwise for something like CFS the best resources are CFS communities and a doctor without all the answers, willing to help you explore.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#73

Post by blibble » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 12:25 PM UTC

c03 wrote: post #35

Why is this so far up on hacker news? It's 3 paragraphs of groundless whining and self-promotion with absolutely no substance.

because it's attacking the tories

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#74

Post by blibble » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 12:27 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #24

TedShiller wrote: post #10

Quoted post unavailable.

Did Biden face, and somehow win, a vote of no-confidence from his own party after photographic evidence emerged that forced the police to fine him for violating regulations that he had personally introduced, publicly supported, and denied violating? Because that’s the state of the British government at the moment.

US presidential system doesn't have votes of no confidence

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#75

Post by quickthrower2 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 12:27 PM UTC

shantnutiwari wrote: post #41

I dont know why this is getting so much hate, I agree with it. Engineer types want everything to be neat and tidy, well planned and thought out. But this doesn't work in the business world, which is messy and chaotic. If you can't live with th chaos, starting a business is a bad idea. (And I say as someone who had failed to start a profitable-compared-to-day-job business)

s/business/kids/ and it is also true!

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#76

Post by throwaway14356 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 12:27 PM UTC

i too as a child thought the grownups knew what they were doing. I decided that my ignorance about all things would make for a great opportunity to imagine how i would organize all things. Unbothered by previous art i could have original ideas all the way!

big mistake, the grownups didn't know, they didn't want to know.... wtf

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#77

Post by PragmaticPulp » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 12:28 PM UTC

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations.

I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for impostor syndrome or as comforting words to people struggling to learn. While intentions might be good, it had an unintended side effect of creating an illusion that expertise doesn’t exist or that everyone’s knowledge is equal regardless of their level of experience.

The dark side of this mentality is that it creates the same situations whereby people believe their own intuitions are equal to professional scientific research. If you believe no one knows what they’re doing and all adults are just making it up as they go, why would you listen to experts instead of inserting your own opinions based on your Facebook research or some quip you saw online?

The real key is to identify who really knows what they’re doing and to what degree, then leverage those people for advice as much as possible. Going through life assuming everybody is equally incompetent will leave you blind to these huge opportunities to learn from other people’s expertise and experience.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#78

Post by t-0 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 12:29 PM UTC

tpoacher wrote: post #59

EnKopVand wrote: post #5

I’m going to let you in on a little secret. I spent almost a decade in public sector digitalisation in Denmark, and those politicians who look like they don’t know what they are doing in the media, well, they absolutely know what they are doing. Not only that, but they get advice from a bureaucracy full of well educated, really smart people, who also know what they are doing and have known so for decades. One of the…

I think this largely depends on the definition of "know". E.g., when I used to work as a doctor in hospital, the last thing I would describe my colleagues as would be incompetent or un-knowing. They all "knew" stuff. Heck, they had to pass stringent exams, and were still accountable to several agencies to ensure being up to date. The thing is, 50% of what they "knew" was wrong. And if you looked a bit under the surfa…

I appreciate that you are using exageration to make a point, but it's worth noting for the record that iatrogenicity is hardley the number one cause of modern disease. Having a medical problem is a prerequisite to the chance of iatrogenic harm after all. Furthermore, a patient can suffer from iatrogenic harm even if everything was done correctly, and does not imply that someone didn't "know" something correctly.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#79

Post by niko001 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 12:31 PM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #45

Some people do , but they're the minority, and you might not even notice them in the crowd. I've seen well over a hundred organisations, small and large, in my careers as a consultant. They're all run by the 90% that have no idea what they're doing. They're chair warmers. Paper pushers. Project mismanagers. Then there are the 10% that keep the lights on, put the fires out, have the brilliant ideas, and keep science a…

I don't think that necessarily contradicts what the author is saying. Even you describe how these top 10% performers are often underpaid, so in some areas (getting noticed, managing office politics, switching companies to get pay rises) they seemingly "don't know what they're doing". A lot of people are brilliant in one particular area and at the same time fail basic life tasks, even though to someone from the outside it looks as if they've got everything figured out.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#80

Post by geoduck14 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 12:33 PM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #72

tpoacher wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this largely depends on the definition of "know". E.g., when I used to work as a doctor in hospital, the last thing I would describe my colleagues as would be incompetent or un-knowing. They all "knew" stuff. Heck, they had to pass stringent exams, and were still accountable to several agencies to ensure being up to date. The thing is, 50% of what they "knew" was wrong. And if you looked a bit under the surfa…

Doctors are great if you have a problem doctors are great at. Otherwise for something like CFS the best resources are CFS communities and a doctor without all the answers, willing to help you explore.

>Doctors are great if you have a problem doctors are great at.

This is tantological- but it has some great depth. I'd like to quote you on this, if I may.