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Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

theguardian.com

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Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#71

Post by theplumber »

wolverine876 wrote: post #43
theplumber wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is part of the evolution. A kind of decentralisations of the human species in smaller groups. If we would be one big world governed by the same policies we could all die by the same mistake. Not to mention that too much empaty would be highly detrimental to any innovation and even survival. You would never fire someone and would use all the reasources to "help the poor" instead to invest into high risk hig…

> Not to mention that too much empaty would be highly detrimental to any innovation and even survival. You would never fire someone and would use all the reasources to "help the poor" instead to invest into high risk high reward projects(i.e computers, space exploration). You would die of starvation instead to slaughter the cow because you are too empathic. This is a fantasy of objectivism, reactionaryism, and the li…

>> Empathy makes you care about the people you will feed with the beef, including yourself (empathy starts with yourself) - it doesn't turn you into an idiot, except in the imaginary strawperson fantasies of the aformentioned groups.

>> empathy starts with yourself

That's not empathy. Empathy starts with the animal/person by your side otherwise you are just a selfish person. If you can eat grass/vegetables and survive why would you kill the poor animal?

Help the poor is in quotes because it's a relative term. People who can afford food and shelder could still be considered poor. Poor people in the U.S are rich people in Yemenn.

I always wondered, if investment in poor people provides good returns why there is not enough investment? (i.e unsecured loans provided by the private sector)

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#72

Post by pif »

theplumber wrote: post #41
Barrin92 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was about to say, we host and feed cats in every corner of the globe yet they have us run around to fetch their stuff and both the ancient Egyptians as well as modern day internet user revere them like gods. If that's not intelligence I don't know what is.

>> If that's not intelligence I don't know what is. Maybe it's just luck. If they were to taste good their faith could be different.

> If they were to taste good

But many people report they do!

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#73

Post by HellsMaddy »

antux wrote: post #56

Recently learned that pigs are smarter than dogs and even 3-year olds. They're also very social, which makes them humanlike. For this reason I don't ever eat pork. It would be like eating dog or human meat.

May I ask, why does the intelligence and sociability of the animal sway your decision, as opposed to the animal’s ability to think and feel? Where is the line that separates eating dog or pork from eating cow or chicken?

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#74

Post by theplumber »

kinghtown wrote: post #46
theplumber wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if a psychopaths would make better soldiers. I always thought that people are just different and their path (i.e serial climinal or great soldier or good manager) depends on the environment. That being said slaughtering cows doesn't seem that bad. After all there are such jobs at slaugherhouses. Perhaps he was just teasing you making it more dramatic.

Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. It’s it ain’t so bad then you’d think there would be more pride in it. But animal cruelty is actually one of the weaker arguments for becoming vegan because it requires, as I said earlier, an a-ha realization that animals are aware, intelligent, feel pain and sadness, deserve more from us as the stewards of this…

>> Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from.

I don't buy that. People are sensitive to certain images. I can't stand to dental surgery videos either and definitely I don't think children would get any benefit from watching such material but that doesn't make dental surgery something people shouldn't do.

That being said as a child I've been exposed to animal slaugther on farms and I still eat beef, chicken and pork(very, very rarely). I don't think seeing how the animals are killed makes you vegan.

I don't enjoy watching animals being killed though but we are mortals and animals are mortals too so in the end it makes little difference if we kill or do not kill animals. We have the same end destination. I think this makes us less sensitive to killing animals and even our own. The difference between us and the animals is that they lack enough intelligence to produce anything meaningful(i.e technology, innovation etc) during their lifespan thus the reason why their scope in life is to become good food for us.

We should minimise the pain inflicted upon animals and create better living conditions. It's good for animals and it's good for the consumers as well. Legislation already exists in Europe and will only get stronger.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#75

Post by logicchains »

kinghtown wrote: post #24
cpsns wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find myself shocked by how little regard people have for the intelligence of other animals. If people readily accepted the intelligence of many mammals, much less other animals, they would have to confront some very serious cognitive dissonance and moral dilemmas. That said, I've found many dog folks are super dismissive of the idea of cats being smart and I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps part of the problem is…

I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammal…

>Cows are very intelligent, have long term memories, and feel desolation when their calves are taken away from them

Have you ever met cows in the farm/paddock? Most cows I've come across are huge assholes, like the kind of person that hangs around a bar trying to start fights. In my mind they deserve to be eaten.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#76

Post by theplumber »

pif wrote: post #72
theplumber wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If that's not intelligence I don't know what is. Maybe it's just luck. If they were to taste good their faith could be different.

> If they were to taste good But many people report they do!

Imported answer from 3rd party:

" Texturally it's similar to goat or pork. Almost like chicken but stringier. Same color as pork, same general fattiness.

That's where the similarities end. Granted both times were in seaside towns, but the flavor was akin to the way it smells when you open a can of tuna. Fishy, pungent and strong. Basically cat tasted like cheap cat food smells. "

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#77

Post by theplumber »

mellavora wrote: post #61
theplumber wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if a psychopaths would make better soldiers. I always thought that people are just different and their path (i.e serial climinal or great soldier or good manager) depends on the environment. That being said slaughtering cows doesn't seem that bad. After all there are such jobs at slaugherhouses. Perhaps he was just teasing you making it more dramatic.

> psychopaths would make better soldiers No, not at all. Soldiers work as part of a team, which is part of a larger team. You can't count on a psychopath to care about the team or the larger organization. What (should) motivate a solider to kill is the same emotion as a sheep dog protecting the flock, or a mother bear protecting her cubs. What motivates a psychopath to kill is harder to say, but it is not something w…

Makes sense. I was thinking being less emotional a psychopath could coupe better with dire situations.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#78

Post by guerrilla »

kinghtown wrote: post #24
cpsns wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find myself shocked by how little regard people have for the intelligence of other animals. If people readily accepted the intelligence of many mammals, much less other animals, they would have to confront some very serious cognitive dissonance and moral dilemmas. That said, I've found many dog folks are super dismissive of the idea of cats being smart and I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps part of the problem is…

I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammal…

> I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear?

The only people who don't think animals feel pain are people who don't spend time with animals. Every farmer since the neolithic has known that animals feel pain and are to some degree or another intelligent (we intentionally bred some of the intelligence out of many.) That has no bearing on whether someone eats meat or not. You have assumptions that most of the world do not share with you.

I feel bad if I see a fly slowly dying, but I'll still kill all houseflies that bother me. There's no contradiction in that. Death isn't suffering; quite the opposite.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#79

Post by simonh »

_Microft wrote: post #33
polishdude20 wrote: post #15

I was surprised by the intelligence of a little spider I encountered the other day. As I was looking for my keys to enter the house, this little jumping spider was on the front door. As I approached the door he moved almost with anticipation. As I turned the keys, he got closer to the door edge. As I opened the door, he swung himself around the door and into the house ahead of me! At that point I decided if got this…

This is an article on the intelligence of jumping spiders and how they plan their approach for an attack and that they e.g. fake being a different animal or even a gust of wind to camouflage when they move through the web of another spider. Maybe you like that: https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/spiders-are-much-sma...

It's interesting and sophisticated behaviour, but there are limits to what extent I'd characterise it as intelligent. I'm sure the spider has no concept of the animals it's mimicking, or that it's even mimicking an animal, or anything else. It might even be a stretch to describe their tactics as 'planned' in the human sense, as they're probably automatic responses to stimuli. They're still one of the most interesting and adept creatures we commonly encounter though.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#80

Post by pferdone »

theplumber wrote: post #74
kinghtown wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. It’s it ain’t so bad then you’d think there would be more pride in it. But animal cruelty is actually one of the weaker arguments for becoming vegan because it requires, as I said earlier, an a-ha realization that animals are aware, intelligent, feel pain and sadness, deserve more from us as the stewards of this…

>> Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. I don't buy that. People are sensitive to certain images. I can't stand to dental surgery videos either and definitely I don't think children would get any benefit from watching such material but that doesn't make dental surgery something people shouldn't do. That being said as a child I've been exposed to an…

>> The difference between us and the animals is that they lack enough intelligence to produce anything meaningful(i.e technology, innovation etc) during their lifespan thus the reason why their scope in life is to become good food for us.

Same logic can be applied to children until a certain age, disabled, sick, old and/or mentally handicapped people. Kettle is easy to take advantage of, it's convenient and almost everything they "produce" can be sold (milk, meat, skin). Not showing enough compassion for sentient beings while having the ability and options to not have them as "a tasty meal" makes you a bad person in that regard. You can be social worker, a teacher, doctor or overall caring person, and have other great character traits, because nothing has to be black and white. Having superior intelligence and using that as an argument to justify exploitation of other living beings is a very sad way to look at all of this in my eyes.

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