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Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

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Re: Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

#71
post #33

This article was a bit long-winded, but it makes a very fair point and I don't understand why it was flagged.

it's not complicated: people don't like heresy. notice how there are zero comments on this page that deal with the substance of the article in question, instead choosing to find various surface-level reasons unrelated to the findings in the article as cause to internally dismiss it. if the content of the article was not heresy and instead came from some trusted scientific authority, this would not be the case.

It doesn't even rise to the level of being wrong. Nobody is even remotely interested in engaging what you call the "substance" of the article, because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law

The people who are working on COVID are too fucking busy to waste their time arguing with kooks who claim they are rational.

Re: Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

#72
post #6

I guess 'rationalism', as a name, calls a certain kind of person out of the ether: 1. They like rationality, and feel it's opposed by 'irrationality'. 2. They want to be part of some 'rational group'. 3. They're ignorant enough not to know the name is already taken. 4. They're ignorant enough not to know that the name means pretty much the opposite of what they believe. (A real rationalist, for instance, probably wou…

Yay gatekeeping!

And look at all these idiots using the word "computer" to mean an electronic computation device! They must be super ignorant to not realize the word was already taken to mean human beings who perform computations as their job!

I would like to be more rational in my thoughts and decisions. I would like it if others were as well. I find that reading articles by so-called "rationalists", and reading debate around them, seems to help me do that. Not surprising, since that is their exact stated goal as well.

As far as what "rational" means:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rational

1. Capable of reasoning.

2. Logically sound; not contradictory or otherwise absurd.

3. Healthy or balanced intellectually; exhibiting reasonableness.

4-7. [Math, chemistry, and physics stuff]

Hmm, nothing about social hierarchy or about how you're not allowed to use that word if you're not a 17th century French philosopher. What the hell are you on about, and why are you so concerned about gatekeeping this word?

Re: Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

#73
post #7

Pursuit of rationality can be paradoxical in a sense, insofar as believing yourself capable attaining rationality is fundamentally irrational. You aren't a Vulcan, you're a Human. To err is human. All humans are irrational some of the time and if you believe yourself capable of being better than that, you're only proving yourself wrong with that very belief. Rationality done right is the pursuit of an unobtainable go…

This is what rationalists like to refer to as a strawman. Show me any example of one claiming to eventually be without err or irrationality. The claims are simply that most people have many implicit biases and illogical means, and that there are some ways of bettering your thinking methods.

I think the idea is that the author of the post we're talking about doesn't consider the idea that they may be internally biased in a way that affects their ability to be rational. From my perspective, it looks like they started from the belief that ivermectin is an generally effective treatment for COVID and that "the data" (that is, a properly weighted and filtered version of the publication record) demonstrates that.

To me that shows a lot of overconfidence. Even as I make statements saying that ivermectin isn't a generally effective treatment for COVID, I fully accept that it's possible my reasoning and interpretation of the evidence could be faulty and that some future study could somehow demonstrate a slam-dunk benefit even for countries with no level of parasitic infections, like the US. If that happened (seems very unlikely, but not impossible) I would change my statement (as would the mainstream medical establishment). The author of the above article doesn't really show that level of epistemic humility.

Re: Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

#74
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What point are you trying to make? That I'm misrepresenting the usage of Ivermectin by cherry picking facts? Wouldn't you be inclined to show I'm wrong then instead of just imply I'm misleading people? Here you can find a long list of countries that use it nationwide as recommended at the national level (which is why I used countries to begin with) https://ivmstatus.com/

Quoted post unavailable.

No post body was provided.

Re: Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

#75
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words and meanings change over time and depending on the context. Strangely you claim it's ignorance but then give supporting reasons why someone might label this "rationalism".

Rationalism is an important term in exactly the field they are supposed to be interested in. And they're using it in more or less the opposite of its conventional sense. I guess it could be just really perverse usage, but I figure it's more like 'objectivism', or 'scientology', words that sound big and impressive to people who are either dumb, or just not very well informed. You can't really change a term like ration…

The meaning of the word can change and it will change sooner or later, in Anglo-sphere or somewhere else.

Historically, the meaning of "rationalism" changed both trough time and cultures.

The way "rationalism" is being used by the lesswrong crowd is currently accepted for example by Polish dictionaries:

Rationalism ( https://sjp.pwn.pl/sjp/racjonalizm;2573228.html ):

3. "a position requiring the observance of restrictive standards of the scientificity of knowledge"

Also from: Williams B., Rationalism, [w:] D.M. Borchert (red.), Encyclopedia of Philosophy, t. VIII, Thomson Gale, 2006, s. 239-247, ISBN 0-02-866072-2.

Rationalism in the enlightenment

The term rationalism is often loosely used to describe an outlook allegedly characteristic of some eighteenth- century thinkers of the Enlightenment, particularly in France, who held an optimistic view of the power of sci- entific inquiry and of education to increase the happiness of humankind and to provide the foundations of a free but harmonious social order. In this connection “ratio- nalistic” is often used as a term of criticism, to suggest a naive or superficial view of human nature that overesti- mates the influence of benevolence and of utilitarian cal- culation and underestimates both the force of destructive impulses in motivation and the importance of such non- rational factors as tradition and faith in the human econ- omy. Jean d’Alembert, Voltaire, and the Marquis de Condorcet, among others, are often cited in this connec- tion. Although there is some truth in these criticisms, the naïveté of these and other Enlightenment writers has often been grossly exaggerated. Also, insofar as “reason” is contrasted with “feeling” or “sentiment,” it is somewhat misleading to describe the Enlightenment writers as rationalistic, for many of them (Denis Diderot, for exam- ple) characteristically emphasized the role of sentiment. Reason was praised in contrast with faith, traditional authority, fanaticism, and superstition. It chiefly repre- sented, therefore, an opposition to traditional Christian- ity.

Here there are two contrasts with the seventeenth- century rationalism of Descartes and others. First, this rationalism is not characteristically antireligious or non- religious; on the contrary, God in some sense, often in a traditional sense, plays a large role in rationalist systems (although Spinoza’s notion of God was extremely unorthodox, and it is notable that the opposition of rea- son and faith is important in his Tractatus Theologico- Politicus). Second, the view of science held by such Enlightenment thinkers as Voltaire was different from that of rationalism, being much more empiricist. The central contrast embodied in the term rationalism as applied to the earlier systems is that of reason versus experience, a contrast that is certainly not present in the Enlightenment praise of the “rational.”

Re: Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

#76
post #72
post #6

I guess 'rationalism', as a name, calls a certain kind of person out of the ether: 1. They like rationality, and feel it's opposed by 'irrationality'. 2. They want to be part of some 'rational group'. 3. They're ignorant enough not to know the name is already taken. 4. They're ignorant enough not to know that the name means pretty much the opposite of what they believe. (A real rationalist, for instance, probably wou…

Yay gatekeeping! And look at all these idiots using the word "computer" to mean an electronic computation device! They must be super ignorant to not realize the word was already taken to mean human beings who perform computations as their job! I would like to be more rational in my thoughts and decisions. I would like it if others were as well. I find that reading articles by so-called "rationalists", and reading deb…

Polish language and Polish culture, heavily influenced by French Enlightenment, also accepts use of word rationalism from empirical perspective.

Rationalism ( https://sjp.pwn.pl/sjp/racjonalizm;2573228.html ):

3. "a position requiring the observance of restrictive standards of the scientificity of knowledge"

I personally prefer that meaning of the word.

Re: Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

#77
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regardless, this seems like a silly diatribe after the medical community has already investigated the Ivermectin idea to great lengths and at massive scale and concluded that any effects it might have are too small to be worth pursuing. It's weird to see someone writing volumes about re-litigating last years' amateur scientist social media battles. Many rationalists are driven by contrarianism and are the living em…

I used to think of myself as a rationalist, but after being wrong a few times in some passionate internet arguments I began to think about what it would mean to truly be a rationalist, and given my understanding of the fallibility of the human brain (evidenced by reproduced/reliable psychological studies), the best way to be rational would be to assume that I myself am not 100% rational (in the same sense that nobody…

Another thing which helps is to not just automatically have an opinion on everything, even if somewhat informed.

It's ok to say "I don't know, this is very complex, even if I spent many hours reading about this matter". Too many rationalists just go with the option which seems a bit more plausible and then behave as if they have near certainty.

Re: Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

#78
post #7

Pursuit of rationality can be paradoxical in a sense, insofar as believing yourself capable attaining rationality is fundamentally irrational. You aren't a Vulcan, you're a Human. To err is human. All humans are irrational some of the time and if you believe yourself capable of being better than that, you're only proving yourself wrong with that very belief. Rationality done right is the pursuit of an unobtainable go…

I believe this is known among some as the concept of striving to be less...wrong...

Re: Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

#79
post #66
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use is present tense.

If you looked at a global distribution (by country), of LSD users, per capita, I'm fairly certain that the US is going to be the top of that list (most users). So, under that argument and my definitions, yes, America uses LSD.

[deleted]

Re: Scott Alexander's correction on ivermectin and its meaning for the rationalists

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In style and content it max-es out on the "I am very smart" scale. So-called rationalists will comb through comments they see as oppositional and accuse them as being emotional as a way to "win" the "argument". It's funny that in the thread about rationalism someone posted a comment that checks off all the boxes. It's really well done.

I've never been too familiar with the whole "rationalist" sphere or whatever but assuming what you're saying is true, does this mean that now, the mere act of pointing out the fact that someone is using emotionally-charged language or otherwise indicating an emotional appeal is being made, cannot be done without immediately triggering a "lol typical 'rationalist' take, such dispassion, very sophist, wow" type of resp…

> hopefully this doesn't make me one of these apparently hated "rational" types...!

Maybe? I don't know. :)

It's fun exploring the art of discourse on HN. The moment I added pathos and pathos to the logos I was using, my online conversations got a lot better. It's fun playing around with 2600 year old tradition of rhetoric, trying rhetorical concepts out and seeing how people respond.

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