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DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

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Re: DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

#71
> Oracle also inserted a clause in their terms of use that boiled down to the fact that one can’t publish benchmarks without getting an explicit approval from Oracle.

This feels horrible and would make me look away from any software that has such a clause. Then again, i use very little proprietary software in place and when i don't, it's mostly due to someone else choosing it for a project and me just needing to bite the bullet.

Though in regards to databases, i'm not sure why you'd fork over the cash and use something proprietary, unless you're trying to get rid of any sort of liability on your own end. Then again, i'm pretty sure that you could also find someone to offer support for your PostgreSQL or MySQL/MariaDB deployment, if you wanted to waste money (or did anything so interesting where such support would be warranted).

> Some cloud vendors permit you to benchmark their service but require reciprocity: you must make the benchmark reproducible and allow benchmarking of your own service or tool in response.

This is a bit better in comparison.

Though licenses in general puzzle me. For example, MongoDB is licensed under SSPL so anyone who offers it as a cloud service would have to open source their entire infrastructure: https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license

And yet i don't think that Digital Ocean is: https://www.digitalocean.com/products/managed-databases-mong... (or maybe they offer the older non-SSPL version).

The whole enforcement angle feels like it would probably impact an individual who benchmarks databases instead of reading bunches of legalese more, for example, than it would impact a larger company that could "figure things out".

Re: DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

#72

Honestly, the presence of that clause screams to me "this app sucks and we'll sue you if you tell anyone how badly". That may not be the case whatsoever, but my first assumption is that they're trying to hide terrible performance.

While I would prefer if this clause was not a thing, I also understand why it exists even for great products. It is surprisingly difficult to reproduce many workload benchmarks and quite easy to engineer a benchmark that misrepresents real-world database performance. There are tools that exist to generate optimally pathological workloads that target specific database implementations, while looking completely reasonab…

If a pathological workload can look completely reasonable and innocuous, then what's the difference between a bad-faith benchmark and a user making an honest mistake?

Re: DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

#73
post #43

You can add Splunk to the list of companies with a similar clause. As a Splunk competitor it makes sales a bit harder initially (we can show our product's numbers, but nothing to compare them against), but if you can convince customers to set up a head-to-head proof-of-concept of their own , well, they tend to figure out why Splunk doesn't want you publishing benchmarks...

Heh

The only number you need to compete with Splunk is a smaller price tag. I'd bet a lot of people would switch solutions and not look back

Re: DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

#74
post #8

It would be quite refreshing if we could have a story in which Oracle are the good guys for once. I'm sure they are at least purchasing some modern-day 'indulgences' by - for instance - donating food to starving north korean elites?

Do not make the mistake to anthropomorphize them...

Re: DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

#75
post #43

You can add Splunk to the list of companies with a similar clause. As a Splunk competitor it makes sales a bit harder initially (we can show our product's numbers, but nothing to compare them against), but if you can convince customers to set up a head-to-head proof-of-concept of their own , well, they tend to figure out why Splunk doesn't want you publishing benchmarks...

[deleted]

Re: DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its mainly related to MSSQL and Horracle. Horracle will just use their legal team (which is bigger than their engineers and developers) to bludgeon you over benchmarks.

"This just in Oracle legal team takes down entire Tor Network" Jokes aside, I'm surprised they're so touchy about these things. They can make plenty of money without it, they can also save plenty of money with less lawyers.

If rationality was always used we wouldn't have had Putin making a gigantic, catastrophic geopolitical mistake. A little common sense goes an awful long way, but only if you choose to use it.

MSSQL is destroying its own market by its pricing (and the licensing thicket, jesus christ, I've been looking at them for 2 days now and... shudder)

Re: DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

#77
Having only cursory experience with Oracle databases (as in install and run some queries and that's it), is there any advantage to them over MariaDB or PostgreSQL? Better development experience, easier to tune or no tuning necessary, anything that makes it worth over the free database servers?

Re: DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

#78

One of my personal bugbears is the DeWitt Clause for Datomic, especially because knowing the performance profile of Datomic is very important for understanding whether your app will be a good fit for it given some of its peculiarities.

You're free to benchmark it yourself and not publish the results.

The performance of it depends heavily on a variety of factors which may it or may not apply to you.

Like a lot of software, the devil is in the details.

Re: DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

#79

> Oracle also inserted a clause in their terms of use that boiled down to the fact that one can’t publish benchmarks without getting an explicit approval from Oracle. This feels horrible and would make me look away from any software that has such a clause. Then again, i use very little proprietary software in place and when i don't, it's mostly due to someone else choosing it for a project and me just needing to bite…

That looks like an official DO partnership

Re: DeWitt Clause, or can you benchmark %database% and get away with it

#80
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you pirate the database, then hide behind the fifth amendment to not reveal that you're a pirate while simultaneously asserting that you never agreed to any EULA? I'm not sure what the legal rights are here. I'm certain someone in say, China or Russia, could pirate the database and run benchmarks on it with no repercussions. Surprising that this isn't a business model for an overseas technology analyst firm.

> Surprising that this isn't a business model for an overseas technology analyst firm. How much are you willing to pay for a legally dubious benchmark?

Does anyone ever pay for benchmarks?

Or are they web content used to lure in new contracts?

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