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Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

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Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

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What about energy? It's true that if you look at most areas of technology they are advancing rapidly. Except energy. Energy has stagnated since the 1950s. I'm on the fence on this issue, but there are many very intelligent and knowledgeable people who are predicting a kind of anti-singularity: in the 21st century, fossil fuel depletion will send us way back, perhaps even de-industrialize most societies. Is our civili…

China is starting a +1 billion dollar project to create a liquid thorium fission reactor (not fusion). The amount of thorium in the world is greater than the amount of copper, tin and some other metals, the amount of usable uranium is around the level of platinum. A working thorium reactor was created in the 1960s, and once china makes a few and show the world its a repeatable process, investors and banks world wide…

Incidentally, you can blend thorium with uranium for use in conventional reactors, and with some cleverness in the fuel handling, pebble bed reactors can run on thorium. It doesn't require big breakthroughs; they're just nice, is all.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#72
post #29

What about energy? It's true that if you look at most areas of technology they are advancing rapidly. Except energy. Energy has stagnated since the 1950s. I'm on the fence on this issue, but there are many very intelligent and knowledgeable people who are predicting a kind of anti-singularity: in the 21st century, fossil fuel depletion will send us way back, perhaps even de-industrialize most societies. Is our civili…

Kurzweil's formula is based on recursive intelligence: getting smarter lets you improve the rate at which you get smarter, ad infinitum. Though this can sometimes improve energy technology, intelligence ultimately depends on energy, of which there is a finite usable amount. Though I'm optimistic about new nuclear technologies, I'm forced to agree that absent an unforeseen break-though in fusion, "zero-point", etc., Kurzweil's model is agnostic when it comes to extracting useful energy, and therefore could have an expiration date.

It's worth noting, however, that we'll never completely run out of energy, so long as Sol keeps burning. Can we sustain anything remotely resembling civilization based only on solar energy and its indirect organic by-products? Well, that's obviously debatable.

> Even if the energy problem is technically solvable, it seems to me that our political systems may be set up to do the absolute worst possible thing

Never doubt the self-interest of the powerful. Some may be short-sighted enough to eat their seed and burn resources in resource wars, but I think we're more likely to devolve into feudalism, where the masses eke out their existence serving the needs of those who control the remaining resources. On the other hand, if any kind of information infrastructure remains when the oil runs out, we also have the possibility of new emergent, de-centralized social structures constructed out of necessity. (Imagine, for instance, a mesh network of hand-crank-powered cell phones which virally alert clusters of villages to band together to defend against marauders.)

Either way, I can't help but feel that our lifetimes are the perfect fulfillment of the old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times."

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#73
post #56
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in neither the doomer nor the pollyanna camp on this, as I said. Keep in mind that EROEI includes not only the energy cost of operating technology but also the energy cost of developing it. Every engineer who worked on that fracking technology? Every car trip they made to/from the office, etc., all has to be included in the energy investment required to get that shale gas out of the ground.

Yup, I totally get EROEI. But, it ignores possible efficiency improvements when it makes it's future projections. What do they say in the finance world? Something like "past performance is not an indicator of future returns." What if in 5-10 years those engineers ride to work in self-driving robo-cars that are all electric, using cheap and powerful graphene-based super capacitors as batteries. They will have time dur…

Efficiency actually increases energy use, as per Jevon's paradox, which goes hand in hand with the technological cornucopia argument that the energy issue will be solved by better technology. Unfortunately the EROEI numbers reflect quite the contrary - where once oil bubbled up from the ground under its own pressure netting 200x EROEI, we're now griming are way through oil sands which net 5-6x EROEI, or sinking 2 mile long pipes into the ocean. This is why Kurzweil argument fails - technology has a tendency to expand and soak up as much energy as possible, all the salad shooters in the world aren't going to bring back $2 oil, in any form.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#74
post #29

What about energy? It's true that if you look at most areas of technology they are advancing rapidly. Except energy. Energy has stagnated since the 1950s. I'm on the fence on this issue, but there are many very intelligent and knowledgeable people who are predicting a kind of anti-singularity: in the 21st century, fossil fuel depletion will send us way back, perhaps even de-industrialize most societies. Is our civili…

Overall good line of thought, but a few other things are worth considering. It is vastly underappreciated just how much the EPA has retarded energy development in the US. The retroactive revocation of permits for the mountaintop coal project, the Keystone XL imbroglio, and the hasty ban on offshore drilling are just a few examples. (Not many know that Deepwater Horizon was out that far because of regulations forbidding drilling closer to the shore).

These areas are inherently dirty and dangerous. It's always easy to do Monday morning quarterbacking, but little recognition of the fact that infrequent domestic oil spills may be preferable to endless foreign oil wars.

Resource extraction in general is demonized by the EPA just as much as the pharmaceutical industry is by the FDA. It is hard to regulate an industry which is respected by the public, because they will get some benefit of the doubt. But if they can be turned into polluters and poisoners, it is easy to justify ever greater state power over the sector.

Computers and the internet are in the exact opposite space: highly respected and almost entirely unregulated. So it's hard for many here to see what the fedguv means (they make App Store approval look like a walk in the park).

But once you're on the insides of those sectors, you start to realize that what is holding back oil in the West (and nuclear power, and drugs, and all non CS sectors) are human factors, not physical ones. That is simultaneous harder and easier to deal with than a genuine scarcity of energy.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

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Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, the future cannot be predicted. Period. I'm not talking impossible-as-in-hard. I am talking impossible-as-in-perpetual-motion. Nice well-behaved linear Newtonian systems can be modeled and predicted. There are systems that are chaotic but that can be modeled in the aggregate very well too, like thermodynamic systems and certain kinds of fluid flow. Life isn't like any of that. Life is complex, chaotic, computat…

Of course, predicting the future with 100% certainty is impossible. But that doesn't mean that making predictions is a mug's game. Predicting the future, with appropriate levels of uncertainty, is a very sensible thing to do with your time. I, for instance, predict that if I wander down to Cheeseboard in twenty minutes I'll find that they're selling delicious pizza. And I predict that if I eat that pizza, then it won…

Arguably, attempting to predict the future is the very essence of intelligence. (See: Jeff Hawkins.)

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#76
post #29

What about energy? It's true that if you look at most areas of technology they are advancing rapidly. Except energy. Energy has stagnated since the 1950s. I'm on the fence on this issue, but there are many very intelligent and knowledgeable people who are predicting a kind of anti-singularity: in the 21st century, fossil fuel depletion will send us way back, perhaps even de-industrialize most societies. Is our civili…

I don't think energy production needs to change very much. One dimension of computing improvement over the past N years is that cpus are getting faster per unit of energy. So, it takes less and less energy for more and more powerful computers.

Remember that our brains only need a couple thousand kcals per day.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#77
String AI is not a hardware problem. It's not a matter of lack of computational power. It is a software and modeling problem. If you had an AI algorithm and a model, you could still run it on any Turning machine. It would just take a lot longer (perhaps years or decades or more) to compute a single thought on current hardware instead of real time or faster than real time on some super fast future hardware.

There are people (like Roger Penrose) who argued that intelligence and consciousness are not computational in nature (and hence no algorithm can be conscious). Penrose goes all the way down to quantum mechanical effects in the brain. I have not really followed developments on this and where Penrose's argument currently stands.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

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Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's startling to me that everything I do comes from 50 megabytes of source code. This fact was a result of the mapping of the human genome, and has since been proven wrong. But like many such facts it has a certain "stickiness" to the human brain. I expect to be hearing it for many years. I tried finding the paper which found that the complexity of mRNA or tRNA (or some other kind, I forget) produced in the brain ma…

Every creature starts from a single cell. At that point the only difference between a mouse and a human is the DNA, right? Isn't mRNA and tRNA is produced from DNA? It's been a long time since high school. So I don't see why it isn't 50MB.

Every creature starts from a single cell. At that point the only difference between a mouse and a human is the DNA, right?

No. That single cell is a working machine of which the DNA is just one component. The proteins which transcribe the DNA, they are in there too, but they are not the DNA. The whole point is that everything else that's in a cell, and there's a lot of "stuff" besides the DNA, has a major effect on what happens.

For embryos specifically both the egg and the sperm contribute "stuff" in addition to DNA.

The metaphor of code and compiler is a bit clunky but decent. If you think the animal as the compiled application and of DNA as its source code, it should be obvious there are millions of lines of code in the OS and compiler, which were required for the compilation of the application.

Is "Hello World" in C just the one .c file, or do we have to count the standard libraries? How about the hardware designs of the PC running it? If you look at just the .c file, it's a few lines, if you look at everything that's actually required to run it, that's a bit more complicated.

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#79
post #29

What about energy? It's true that if you look at most areas of technology they are advancing rapidly. Except energy. Energy has stagnated since the 1950s. I'm on the fence on this issue, but there are many very intelligent and knowledgeable people who are predicting a kind of anti-singularity: in the 21st century, fossil fuel depletion will send us way back, perhaps even de-industrialize most societies. Is our civili…

"Averaged over 30 years, the trend is for an annual 7 percent reduction in the dollars per watt of solar photovoltaic cells. While in the earlier part of this decade prices flattened for a few years, the sharp decline" http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2011/03/16/sm...

'The cost of solar, in the average location in the U.S., will cross the current average retail electricity price of 12 cents per kilowatt hour in around 2020, or 9 years from now. In fact, given that retail electricity prices are currently rising by a few percent per year, prices will probably cross earlier, around 2018 for the country as a whole, and as early as 2015 for the sunniest parts of America.'

If solar is at a 7% annual decline is that not a very rapid advancement?

Re: Kurzweil's rebuttal to Paul Allen

#80
post #73
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, I totally get EROEI. But, it ignores possible efficiency improvements when it makes it's future projections. What do they say in the finance world? Something like "past performance is not an indicator of future returns." What if in 5-10 years those engineers ride to work in self-driving robo-cars that are all electric, using cheap and powerful graphene-based super capacitors as batteries. They will have time dur…

Efficiency actually increases energy use, as per Jevon's paradox, which goes hand in hand with the technological cornucopia argument that the energy issue will be solved by better technology. Unfortunately the EROEI numbers reflect quite the contrary - where once oil bubbled up from the ground under its own pressure netting 200x EROEI, we're now griming are way through oil sands which net 5-6x EROEI, or sinking 2 mil…

Read my comment a few levels up.

The data says that Jevon's paradox is wrong. See the energy usage chart here: http://www.singularity2050.com/2011/07/the-end-of-petrotyran...

Since about 1982, the annual world oil consumption has held at roughly 32 billion barrels despite efficiency improvements in petrol energy usage.

Our technological efficiency improvements are doing more with the same amount of energy and not more with more energy, as Jevon's paradox predicts.

Think about this simplified example. Our cars get better mpg today. Which means that we have energy left over to use to sink those 2 mile long pipes into the ocean. Because of the efficiency improvements, we have just done more with the same amount of energy.

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