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The coffeeshop fallacy

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Re: The coffeeshop fallacy

#71

Post by tptacek »

efsavage wrote: post #69
pacemkr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about this. Saying "I'm a software developer" just doesn't communicate what I do, even though programming is... well, what I do. Thanks for reframing the problem succinctly. You thought about this, so how do you describe your profession?

patio11's answers are cute, but if you say things like that you'll probably just end up defending yourself against people's misinterpretations. "So you're a teacher?" or "You mean like a security guard?" I think the best approach is a middle ground, rather than say what you are, or what the ultimate result is, just say what you _do_. "I build websites" or "I build iphone applications" or "I run servers and networks"…

His cute answer is safer than mine, which is "I rob banks."

You need to internalize something about marketing. When Patrick says, "I helped 2 million kids learn how to read", he has framed the conversation in terms of the value proposition he wants to talk about.

Statistically speaking, "nobody" cares about websites and iPhone applications. Moreover, virtually nobody --- even practitioners --- can tell the difference between someone who is good at building a website and someone who is working from a copy of "learn PHP in 3 hours". Saying what you "do" is a remarkably bad strategy.

If the thought of explaining the broad value you choose to provide to people produces cold sweats, my recommendation is "practice more".

Re: The coffeeshop fallacy

#72

Post by Swannie »

toast76 wrote: post #70

The coffeeshop fallacy is, in fact, a fallacy. People don't open coffee shops to drink coffee all day any more than someone would open a bar because they want to drink all day. My brother is a wine maker. He is insanely passionate about wine (Pinot to be precise). When he's not working he's talking about and sharing wine. But at the end of the day, he's just a farmer. He tends his vines, picks the fruit, puts in vats…

"The coffeeshop fallacy assumes our coffee drinker knows no shit-all about coffee."

I think you missed the point. It doesn't matter how much you know about coffee. It matters how much you know about other things, mostly unrelated, accounting, cleaning, hiring, cleaning, customer service, etc.

Re: The coffeeshop fallacy

#73

Post by zach »

One time when I was working at Luxoflux, the pizza guy remarked it must be great to work as a game developer and "play games all day."

I had to hold my tongue or I would have replied that it must be great to work at a pizza place and eat pizza all day.

Re: The coffeeshop fallacy

#74

Post by thenomad »

toast76 wrote: post #70

The coffeeshop fallacy is, in fact, a fallacy. People don't open coffee shops to drink coffee all day any more than someone would open a bar because they want to drink all day. My brother is a wine maker. He is insanely passionate about wine (Pinot to be precise). When he's not working he's talking about and sharing wine. But at the end of the day, he's just a farmer. He tends his vines, picks the fruit, puts in vats…

Quite.

I speak here as someone who owns a coffee shop's less profitable cousin, the independent film company.

There are basically two types of people who will start a "cool" company - those who like hanging out in coffee shops, and those who would be making coffee for people whether they were getting paid or not. Those people, in fact, whose happiness is in large part directly related to the percentage of the day they've spent with their hand on the lever of a manual expresso machine. Yes, they exist. No, they're not kidding themselves - that really is what makes them happy.

Discouraging the former from starting a coffee shop is an excellent plan. Speaking as one of the latter (film-making, not coffee), trying to discourage them from starting a coffee shop (or indie film company) is a) probably pointless and b) not a great idea if you actually care about them as a person.

Their passion may wane. They may decide to start other businesses to help their passion business grow (as I've done).

But at the end of the day, people like toast76's brother, me, and a wide variety of other people are GOING to open the damn coffee shop, and if it works, it will make them happier than anything else they could do.

In those cases, you will be better STFUing about how awful an idea it is to open a coffee shop, and instead starting to talk location, accounting, and sales skills...

Re: The coffeeshop fallacy

#75

Post by toast76 »

Swannie wrote: post #72
toast76 wrote: post #70

The coffeeshop fallacy is, in fact, a fallacy. People don't open coffee shops to drink coffee all day any more than someone would open a bar because they want to drink all day. My brother is a wine maker. He is insanely passionate about wine (Pinot to be precise). When he's not working he's talking about and sharing wine. But at the end of the day, he's just a farmer. He tends his vines, picks the fruit, puts in vats…

"The coffeeshop fallacy assumes our coffee drinker knows no shit-all about coffee." I think you missed the point. It doesn't matter how much you know about coffee. It matters how much you know about other things, mostly unrelated, accounting, cleaning, hiring, cleaning, customer service, etc.

No I didn't :)

You can learn "accounting, cleaning, hiring, cleaning, customer service". You can't learn passion about coffee.

Re: The coffeeshop fallacy

#76

Post by icebraining »

quinndupont wrote: post #17
lhnn wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'd downvote you if I could, not because I disagree with you, but because this is a strawman. The author used a low margin, low sucess business example to make a point about what mindset someone should be in to successfully run a business. You took from that the message that anything enjoyable is not sustainable. "Focus on creating something inherently good --> it will not be sustainable" You also l…

Coffee is an insanely high margin product. You think it costs $4.00 for the 5 grams of coffee in your drink?

Coffee prices in the US are odd. 'round here (Southern European country) we pay less than a dollar for a coffee. Well, except in Starbucks, but then again, that's my point.

Re: The coffeeshop fallacy

#77

Post by icebraining »

aloneinkyoto wrote: post #44
jerf wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'll tell you what tipped me over the edge was when you played the "whoa, tell me what's wrong instead of downmodding me" when timestamps show at least three people engaging with you before this post you made here.

Yes, but the only feedback provided was that my argument was a straw-man. I.e. they disagreed with the point I was trying to make. And as far as I understand, the social contract on Hacker News implies that you don't down vote if you disagree, only if the comment is spam or trolling, etc. Although I suppose I'm on the verge of becoming somewhat of a troll right now.

(...) argument was a straw-man. I.e. they disagreed with the point I was trying to make.

Pointing out that your argument is a straw-man is not a disagreement. It's saying that you are misrepresenting the article's position, and that's an objectively bad post.

Also, I'm not sure if downvoting when disagreeing is discouraged. Spam should be marked by flagging, not downvoting.

Re: The coffeeshop fallacy

#78

Post by 6ren »

> ... it's how people end up spending years building stuff nobody wants to buy.

Isn't that the opposite of the coffeeshop fallacy? i.e. that you enjoy producing it, not consuming it; the coffeeshop fallacy is that you enjoy consuming, not producing.

Re: The coffeeshop fallacy

#79

Post by jimboyoungblood »

bh42222 wrote: post #40
jimboyoungblood wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, you will be able to own that coffee shop, but you won't want to. being their landlord is a better way to go. also, i don't think software is viewed as a "high-prestige" profession.

also, i don't think software is viewed as a "high-prestige" profession. It really depends on where in the world you are.

i don't know about other countries, but being a software developer is not high-status anywhere in the united states.

i lived many years in sf and mountain view. even there, being a "product manager" is higher status than "software developer" or "engineer".

Re: The coffeeshop fallacy

#80

Post by minikomi »

zach wrote: post #73

One time when I was working at Luxoflux, the pizza guy remarked it must be great to work as a game developer and "play games all day." I had to hold my tongue or I would have replied that it must be great to work at a pizza place and eat pizza all day.

Funnily enough, I did this in college - and it was great! Especially since you can choose the toppings.
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